Asking for advice on taking a free test & General question regarding rates
Thread poster: mictesting17
mictesting17
mictesting17
Canada
Local time: 09:15
Korean to English
+ ...
Feb 26, 2020

Hello!
I am a new member and really glad to have found this wonderful community!
I would really appreciate your advice on my current job application.


1. Is it a commonplace for a free "interview" test to be over 500 words long? I have just been asked to translate over 20 phrases.

While I have agreed to take the test, two things are concerning me:

- Prospective client provided NO detail (length, content) about this free test when askin
... See more
Hello!
I am a new member and really glad to have found this wonderful community!
I would really appreciate your advice on my current job application.


1. Is it a commonplace for a free "interview" test to be over 500 words long? I have just been asked to translate over 20 phrases.

While I have agreed to take the test, two things are concerning me:

- Prospective client provided NO detail (length, content) about this free test when asking me to take it (and sending it over).

- I have noticed that all the phrases 'could' actually be used for their advertised project! This client has NO payment/employment history on the freelance platform, and has contacted me outside that platform (via email).



2. In your opinion, what would be a fair rate per word (Source: English / Target: Korean), given:

- Native speaker with 11 years of translation experience
- Advertised project entails "Localization" in the IT industry
- Full-time position; client expects between 2000-4000 words per day (presumably depending on their budget)

Prospective client has suggested $0.05/word for English to Korean translation, but I have just found the suggested rate chart here on ProZ- which lists the minimum rate to be $0.08

Although I have worked at different rates for various projects over the years, I thought it would only be fair for me to do my part of research and find out what's the going rate and trend for the "IT Localization" industry. My last translation output in this industry was back in 2016.


Thank you very much for your time! I really hope to hear back from you.
Collapse


 
Armine Abelyan
Armine Abelyan
Armenia
Local time: 17:15
English to Armenian
+ ...
Would recommend to reduce the test without payment Feb 26, 2020

I would really recommend less and less acceptance just because it is not accepted in other professions or jobs.
I think any effort requires payment.

You may see here some data:
https://www.facebook.com/ArmenianTechnicalTranslations/photos/a.659096117493617/2557557264314150/?type=3&theate


mictesting17
 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 14:15
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Mic Feb 26, 2020

mictesting17 wrote:
1. Is it a commonplace for a free "interview" test to be over 500 words long? I have just been asked to translate over 20 phrases.


It is not uncommon for tests to be that long, although the usual answer to the question "how long should a test be" is usually in the 250-word range.

- Prospective client provided NO detail (length, content) about this free test when asking me to take it (and sending it over).


This is not uncommon in the freelance world when dealing with low-paying translation agencies. That said, even in the world of salaried translation, the translator is often expected to just know certain things and not ask for his client's help too often, right? Also, some tests come with a lot of extra information (to see if the translator can follow instructions) while others come with very little extra information (to see if the translator can work independently?).

- I have noticed that all the phrases 'could' actually be used for their advertised project!


There are always stories of clients getting jobs done as fake free tests. If you're concerned, tell the client that 500 words is too many, and then skip every 3rd phrase.

Prospective client has suggested $0.05/word for English to Korean translation...


It's on the low side. Remember, though: if it turns out that the work takes much longer than you originally anticipated, you are free to tell the client "sorry, this work takes longer than I anticipated" and raise your rate. If they then refuse to pay the higher rate, well, you are free as a freelancer. You are free to accept low-paying jobs that you can do quickly, and you are free to change your mind later (not in mid-project!) not to accept low-paying jobs that are not worth your while.

I have just found the suggested rate chart here on ProZ.com, which lists the minimum rate to be $0.08.


There are no suggested rates on ProZ.com -- what you see is the results of a very simplistic survey that does not even take into account the location of either the translator or the client. And the word "minimum" is misleading -- in ProZ.com parlance it refers to how job offers are filtered, not to how low translators are actually willing to go.


mictesting17
 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 13:15
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Full time? Feb 26, 2020

mictesting17 wrote:
This client has NO payment/employment history on the freelance platform, and has contacted me outside that platform (via email).

What checks have you done to ensure that this is a bona-fide client? If you haven't already, you should:
- check out the Scam Centre and the Risk Management Wiki article on this site
- do a Google search for the company name; then search for it together with the word "scam"; do the same for your contact's name and for their email address too
- check their details on the register of companies of their country, if possible -- there's a Wikipedia article listing many
- check the postal address on Google Earth: it probably won't prove anything, but it can seem plausible or downright fishy
- find a contact route that they themselves haven't provided. This is an important check. Sending an email via their ProZ.com profile or some other profile is perfect, or through their own website if it's voluminous and expensive-looking. You need to rule out identity theft.

Full-time position; client expects between 2000-4000 words per day (presumably depending on their budget)

That's very fishy, IMO. How long is this supposed to go on for? When would you get paid? You can't afford to do many tens of thousands of words before invoicing! What guarantees are you getting that they won't suddenly have zero words for you? We don't usually have any guarantees, and I'm personally fine with that as I have many clients, but you're going to be totally dependent on them if this goes on for more than a short while. It's for this reason that this would be regarded as an illegal arrangement in many countries (Spain and France are two I know of), if you're both based in the one country. You'd essentially be working as an employee, not a FREElancer, so you should have all the benefits of an employment contract.

At the very least, I'd want to spend time doing lots of research before agreeing to anything at all -- including that test. I'd want a contract (checked by a lawyer) that gave assurances of compensation in the event that the project is cancelled and provided for a minimum/maximum no of words each day. I'd also want to see the colour of their money very early on -- and I'd then wait to make sure it wasn't a dud payment before I did any more work for them.


Korana Lasić
Diana Kaplan
Josephine Cassar
Tina Vonhof (X)
mictesting17
Sarah Maidstone
 
mictesting17
mictesting17
Canada
Local time: 09:15
Korean to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Armine! Feb 26, 2020

Armine Abelyan wrote:

I would really recommend less and less acceptance just because it is not accepted in other professions or jobs.
I think any effort requires payment.

You may see here some data:
https://www.facebook.com/ArmenianTechnicalTranslations/photos/a.659096117493617/2557557264314150/?type=3&theate


Thank you very much for your advice and the interesting link!


 
mictesting17
mictesting17
Canada
Local time: 09:15
Korean to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Samuel! Feb 26, 2020

Samuel Murray wrote:

This is not uncommon in the freelance world when dealing with low-paying translation agencies. That said, even in the world of salaried translation, the translator is often expected to just know certain things and not ask for his client's help too often, right? Also, some tests come with a lot of extra information (to see if the translator can follow instructions) while others come with very little extra information (to see if the translator can work independently?).


Thank you very much for your insightful reply!

There are always stories of clients getting jobs done as fake free tests. If you're concerned, tell the client that 500 words is too many, and then skip every 3rd phrase.


I am definitely going to tell the client that 500+ words (which make up 1/4 - 1/6 of the daily output they expect of a full-time position) is excessive for an unpaid test.

It's on the low side. Remember, though: if it turns out that the work takes much longer than you originally anticipated, you are free to tell the client "sorry, this work takes longer than I anticipated" and raise your rate. If they then refuse to pay the higher rate, well, you are free as a freelancer. You are free to accept low-paying jobs that you can do quickly, and you are free to change your mind later (not in mid-project!) not to accept low-paying jobs that are not worth your while.


This is a very good point, thank you. Having looked at the 20+ phrases found in the free test, I am anticipating that translation would take longer than many other projects; this is due to many product names/features, other industry-specific terminology and 'trend words' that require double-checking on my side (such as going to the client's product page/manual/script, etc.).

Would it be wise to bring this up to the client when deciding the starting rate? As you have mentioned, I do see it as a valid option to re-negotiate the rate later- should the project actually take longer than expected.

There are no suggested rates on ProZ.com -- what you see is the results of a very simplistic survey that does not even take into account the location of either the translator or the client. And the word "minimum" is misleading -- in ProZ.com parlance it refers to how job offers are filtered, not to how low translators are actually willing to go.


That's very good to know. I initially thought that this chart was based on data from actual translation projects done through ProZ.


 
mictesting17
mictesting17
Canada
Local time: 09:15
Korean to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Sheila! Feb 26, 2020

Sheila Wilson wrote:

What checks have you done to ensure that this is a bona-fide client? If you haven't already, you should:
- check out the Scam Centre and the Risk Management Wiki article on this site
- do a Google search for the company name; then search for it together with the word "scam"; do the same for your contact's name and for their email address too
- check their details on the register of companies of their country, if possible -- there's a Wikipedia article listing many
- check the postal address on Google Earth: it probably won't prove anything, but it can seem plausible or downright fishy
- find a contact route that they themselves haven't provided. This is an important check. Sending an email via their ProZ.com profile or some other profile is perfect, or through their own website if it's voluminous and expensive-looking. You need to rule out identity theft.


Thank you very much for this truly informative and insightful reply, Sheila! I really appreciate your detailed and practical advice. Following your wonderful message I have done some more research, and this is what I've found:

- company does have a nice working website, as well as Linkedin, Facebook and Glassdoor pages- albeit, with many 'not so great' reviews.
- search result for 'company name + scam' did not display anything suspicious (such as reviews, anecdotes, etc.)
- search result for 'contact's name + company name' was a legitimate Linkedin profile; endorsements, location, job duties, etc. clearly stated and verified
- found a direct 'contact form' on their company website, which also lists all of their locations in North America with address and phone numbers (consistent on Google maps, Glassdoor, Linkedin, etc.)
- as mentioned, however, their profile on the freelance platform (where I actually applied) still has nothing since 2017!

That's very fishy, IMO. How long is this supposed to go on for? When would you get paid? You can't afford to do many tens of thousands of words before invoicing! What guarantees are you getting that they won't suddenly have zero words for you? We don't usually have any guarantees, and I'm personally fine with that as I have many clients, but you're going to be totally dependent on them if this goes on for more than a short while. It's for this reason that this would be regarded as an illegal arrangement in many countries (Spain and France are two I know of), if you're both based in the one country. You'd essentially be working as an employee, not a FREElancer, so you should have all the benefits of an employment contract.

At the very least, I'd want to spend time doing lots of research before agreeing to anything at all -- including that test. I'd want a contract (checked by a lawyer) that gave assurances of compensation in the event that the project is cancelled and provided for a minimum/maximum no of words each day. I'd also want to see the colour of their money very early on -- and I'd then wait to make sure it wasn't a dud payment before I did any more work for them.


Based on the client's job posting and emails, there is no information on the duration of this project; so far I have only been asked if I could work full-time, but the client hasn't mentioned anything about payment method/platform/frequency. It is also unclear if the client wishes to hire through this freelance platform, or hiring will be arranged by the company.

I do completely agree with you on needing to communicate and verify terms of hiring and payment. Now that I've done my research, I am going to contact the client with these important questions- and make it clear that unpaid test of 500+ words seems unreasonable at this point in time, without the client making employment/payment terms clear.

Once again, thank you so much for your reply!


 
Robert Rietvelt
Robert Rietvelt  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:15
Member (2006)
Spanish to Dutch
+ ...
A bit confiused Feb 26, 2020

mictesting17 wrote:

Hello!
I am a new member and really glad to have found this wonderful community!
I would really appreciate your advice on my current job application.


1. Is it a commonplace for a free "interview" test to be over 500 words long? I have just been asked to translate over 20 phrases.

While I have agreed to take the test, two things are concerning me:

- Prospective client provided NO detail (length, content) about this free test when asking me to take it (and sending it over).

- I have noticed that all the phrases 'could' actually be used for their advertised project! This client has NO payment/employment history on the freelance platform, and has contacted me outside that platform (via email).



2. In your opinion, what would be a fair rate per word (Source: English / Target: Korean), given:

- Native speaker with 11 years of translation experience
- Advertised project entails "Localization" in the IT industry
- Full-time position; client expects between 2000-4000 words per day (presumably depending on their budget)

Prospective client has suggested $0.05/word for English to Korean translation, but I have just found the suggested rate chart here on ProZ- which lists the minimum rate to be $0.08

Although I have worked at different rates for various projects over the years, I thought it would only be fair for me to do my part of research and find out what's the going rate and trend for the "IT Localization" industry. My last translation output in this industry was back in 2016.


Thank you very much for your time! I really hope to hear back from you.


- 'I am a new member' - Welcome to Proz.

- 'Test to be over 500 words' - No more then 200 - 250 words.

- 'I have noticed that all the phrases could' actually be used for their advertised project! - Smells fishy, don't do it.

The (for me) confusing part.

- Native speaker with 11 years of translation experience. - Your talking about yourself or is that the requirement of the agency? I take it your are talking about yourself, you got 11 years of experience and all the rest is also about you. Right?

- Price is debatable, but 0.05 seems for me very low.

So what actually is confusing to me, is that a translator with 11 year of experience is asking such basic questions. I would say, after 11 years, you would know the tricks. On the other side, two of my highly estmate colleagues, Sheila and Samuel, don't seem to be confused, and both of them are native English. I am not.

So what am I missing here.

Please tell me.










[Edited at 2020-02-27 08:36 GMT]


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 13:15
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
In-house job with some translating? Feb 26, 2020

Robert Rietvelt wrote:
So what actually is confusing to me, is that a translator with 11 year of experience is asking such basic questions. I would say, after 11 years, you would know the tricks.

I assumed that the poster had been working in a job that entailed some translation but maybe not all the time. In other words, they had zero experience of the freelance world, and probably little idea of being in a freelancer--client relationship.


 
mictesting17
mictesting17
Canada
Local time: 09:15
Korean to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you once again! Feb 27, 2020

Sheila Wilson wrote:

I assumed that the poster had been working in a job that entailed some translation but maybe not all the time. In other words, they had zero experience of the freelance world, and probably little idea of being in a freelancer--client relationship.


You guessed it right, Sheila. Up until recently, I have been working as a translator 'offline'. I started translation work at a voice-over production studio, then worked both in-house and remotely for a few IT companies. I am definitely new to this online freelance work environment, and hoping to learn as much as I can. Thank you once again for your advice.


 
mictesting17
mictesting17
Canada
Local time: 09:15
Korean to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Robert! Feb 27, 2020

Robert Rietvelt wrote:

- 'I am a new member' - Welcome to Proz.

- 'Test to be over 500 words' - No more then 200 - 250 words.

- 'I have noticed that all the phrases could' actually be used for their advertised project! - Smells fishy, don't do it.

The (for me) confusing part.

- Native speaker with 11 years of translation experience. - Your talking about yourself or is that the requirement of the agency? I take it your are talking about yourself, you got 11 years of experience and all the rest is also about you. Right?

- Price is debatable, but 0.05 seems for me very low.

So what actually is confusing to me, is that a translator with 11 year of experience is asking such basic questions. I would say, after 11 years, you would know the tricks. On the other side, two of my highly estmate colleagues, Sheila and Samuel, don't seem to be confused, and both of them are native English (at least one of them, the other medieval Dutch (Sorry Samuel). I am not.

So what am I missing here.

Please tell me.


Thank you very much for your reply, Robert!

I am new to working online; I have previously worked 'offline' as a translator in-house or remotely. I have also provided translation services for my ESL students, who needed both work and personal documents translated.

Although my actual translation duties and tasks haven't changed much since switching to online work, there are some new elements to dealing with 'virtual' clients- and I am here to learn.

I appreciate your advice on NOT taking the test. Even though I have learnt more about this company and my contact, I still think that it is entirely possible for those phrases to be used directly in their new product.


 


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