| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Agency tries to impose SDL calculation method to calculate project fee. Thread poster: Vincent Lemma
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Hello all,
After many long years as a translator I came across something new regarding translation fees.
A new agency uses what is called, at least in their words, the "SDL method" to calculate the project fee.
They basically calculate everything into Italian "cartelle" which is a total of 1500 characters including spaces, and then pay per this unit.
The oddity is that they speak of it as it is the "right" method, which after 19 years in the business I know to be false as... See more Hello all,
After many long years as a translator I came across something new regarding translation fees.
A new agency uses what is called, at least in their words, the "SDL method" to calculate the project fee.
They basically calculate everything into Italian "cartelle" which is a total of 1500 characters including spaces, and then pay per this unit.
The oddity is that they speak of it as it is the "right" method, which after 19 years in the business I know to be false as their is no one standard of calculating fees.
I normally charge per word, which varies depending on the turnaround requested, topic, complexity, PDF and numerous other issues.
Generally, I treat all clients very well, and offer honest rates and excellent quality and quick turnarounds.
The funny thing is that the agency had written via email that is discusses a lump sum for each project, which is fine for me, but their fees are on the low side, more suited for rookies who lack years of knowledge (no offense).
I offered a lower rate for the first job assigned to me, and now they have come out and told me that the method they use is the right method.
Even if this were true, the fact remains that fees are still low.
Is there something that I'm missing here? I feel like they want quality work and cheap prices, basically like everybody.
I just responded that I am unable to meet their request and understood their needs, but they insisted.
I love the business savvy that states, "sometimes it's just better to say no".
Wishing you all a great day.
Vincent ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 01:29
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Vincent Lemma wrote:
They basically calculate everything into Italian "cartelle" which is a total of 1500 characters including spaces, and then pay per this unit.
Why is this a problem for you? 1500 characters is equivalent to 250-300 words, so take your per-word rate and multiply it by 300 (or 250) to get the per-cartelle rate.
Can we assume they count fractions of cartelles, too? In other words, if the job is 1501 characters long, do they pay for 2 cartelles, 1.0007 cartelles or 1.01 cartelles?
I'm not sure what they mean by "SDL method".
| | | | Vincent Lemma
Italy
Local time: 01:29
Italian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | I do not charge by "cartella" | Jul 24, 2020 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Vincent Lemma wrote:
They basically calculate everything into Italian "cartelle" which is a total of 1500 characters including spaces, and then pay per this unit. Why is this a problem for you? 1500 characters is equivalent to 250-300 words, so take your per-word rate and multiply it by 300 (or 250) to get the per-cartelle rate. Can we assume they count fractions of cartelles, too? In other words, if the job is 1501 characters long, do they pay for 2 cartelles, 1.0007 cartelles or 1.01 cartelles? I'm not sure what they mean by "SDL method".
The fact is that I charge per source word on the basis of the SDL report generated by analyzing the files.
In the case at point, the fee for this project would come out to roughly 0,04 euro/word, which is well below a decent rate for an experienced translator, especially since they want a very quick turnaround for three manuals, which also require format any layout checks.
| | | | Jo Macdonald
Spain
Local time: 01:29
Italian to English
+ ...
| and therein have you both problem and solution | Jul 24, 2020 |
Vincent Lemma wrote:
the fee for this project would come out to roughly 0,04 euro/word
Doesn't matter how you want to calculate how much you think my time is worth, it's worth more than that.
Thank you but no.
Simple as that.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 01:29
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Why? Why not? | Jul 24, 2020 |
Vincent Lemma wrote:
I do not charge by "cartella".
Why not? Why can't you just convert your per-word rate to a per-cartella rate? Is there is a legal reason why you can't charge per cartella? So, if your per-word rate is e.g. €0.15, why not make your per-cartella rate €45.00? Doing this won't prevent you from using Trados to calculate the rate.
In the case at point, the fee for this project would come out to roughly 0,04 euro/word...
But that is not the cartella's fault -- it simply means that the offered per-cartella rate is too low.
| | | | Vincent Lemma
Italy
Local time: 01:29
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Jo Macdonald wrote: Vincent Lemma wrote:
the fee for this project would come out to roughly 0,04 euro/word Doesn't matter how you want to calculate how much you think my time is worth, it's worth more than that. Thank you but no. Simple as that.
Yes indeed. I'd rather turn down a job that accept a poor rate and do it halfheartedly
My fees are already too low in my opinion for the work I provide.
I'd rather put the time into learning other shills than selling myself short.
I get the funny feeling that they are just trying to push fees really low in virtue of MT.
| | | | Thayenga
Germany
Local time: 01:29
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| Common price dumping | Jul 24, 2020 |
Yes, this is a not at all new way to decrease rates.
What most agencies don't realize is the fact that the service provider had to pay for the CAT tool him-/herself, so that most of the benefits go to the customer who is, of course, unwilling to even pay a portion of the license renewal costs.
Customers and service providers should be equal partners, but the agencies simply and unilaterally impose these forced deduction on the translator. The translator has to either ac... See more Yes, this is a not at all new way to decrease rates.
What most agencies don't realize is the fact that the service provider had to pay for the CAT tool him-/herself, so that most of the benefits go to the customer who is, of course, unwilling to even pay a portion of the license renewal costs.
Customers and service providers should be equal partners, but the agencies simply and unilaterally impose these forced deduction on the translator. The translator has to either accept a reduced rate or decline the job.
In fact, it doesn't even seem to cross the peoples' minds that a translator might not even own a CAT tool. Its availability is simply taken for granted. Consequently, the agency sees no need in even negotiating the reduced fees. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sadek_A
Local time: 03:29
English to Arabic
+ ...
It would help if you can ask yourself a simple question like: in a non-creative, no-brainer profession like food delivery, what happens? The provider sets their own item, rate, serving and timing; and, despite all of that, they might still f**k up the order.
Then, why do clients feel that much entitled in our profession to the extent of setting even their own rate and deadline, the answer is simple: we let them.
And, of course, some are planted among us, disguised as tr... See more It would help if you can ask yourself a simple question like: in a non-creative, no-brainer profession like food delivery, what happens? The provider sets their own item, rate, serving and timing; and, despite all of that, they might still f**k up the order.
Then, why do clients feel that much entitled in our profession to the extent of setting even their own rate and deadline, the answer is simple: we let them.
And, of course, some are planted among us, disguised as translators, while in fact they're working for the other side and trying to get us used to worse working conditions; you will always read them repeating, either explicitly or implicitly, things like "no one owes you anything", "your clients have no obligation to send you work, even after you invested time filling their applications, answering their questions, taking their tests, etc.", "you must keep busting your hump looking for new clients all the time, because your current clients have the right to sack you off at any point", etc.
I just hope those some are paid in salary with complete benefits, rather than by the comment, because I think their fierce attempts, however dirty, should be well-rewarded.
The canon adopted by translators in the face of their 'abusive' clients must become as simple as: take it or leave it, but don't negotiate it! ▲ Collapse
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 00:29
Member (2007)
English
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| Manual updates can benefit greatly from CAT tool use. | Jul 24, 2020 |
Vincent Lemma wrote:
The fact is that I charge per source word on the basis of the SDL report generated by analyzing the files.
In the case at point, the fee for this project would come out to roughly 0,04 euro/word, which is well below a decent rate for an experienced translator, especially since they want a very quick turnaround for three manuals, which also require format any layout checks.
So they're expecting you to use a CAT tool and benefit from the time-saving you'd get from repetitions and 100% matches and the possible savings from fuzzy matches. In that case, the per-word rate may indeed be very low. I don't let my clients determine the rate but I do offer some clients a discount based on these CAT tool grids. If they send one file, and then another that's basically mainly identical but customised for a different readership, I end up charging a very low per-word rate for the second file because it takes only a tiny fraction of the time.
You seem to be worried about changing your method of calculating the rate. You shouldn't be. The only rate that really matters is the hourly rate. You could theoretically charge for every "e" in the text, or for every definite article, or whatever. Just calculate how much you'd need to charge for each to give you a decent hourly rate.
What you shouldn't do is let an agency reap all the benefits of using a CAT tool. You can afford to lower your rate for the job somewhat, for the reasons described above. But you needed to buy and learn to use those CAT tools.
| | | | Vincent Lemma
Italy
Local time: 01:29
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for the kind replies
I have been using SDL for over 10 years now, so it is a routine part of the job.
I agree when you all say that I do not want to charge by cartella, in my mind calculating by word is more accurate but that may be just me.
The agencies always want to benefit from the CAT TMs, but I charge 100% matches and full reps, and already offer convenient rates, even on complex jobs.
I... See more Thanks for the kind replies
I have been using SDL for over 10 years now, so it is a routine part of the job.
I agree when you all say that I do not want to charge by cartella, in my mind calculating by word is more accurate but that may be just me.
The agencies always want to benefit from the CAT TMs, but I charge 100% matches and full reps, and already offer convenient rates, even on complex jobs.
I just hate being pushed to much, which I why I'd rather refuse that let agencies reap benefits on my work and get the short end of the stick.
However, the idea of offering a cartella rate is more than acceptable. I just thought that offering a source word fee was better in general.
Guess there is always room for learning.
.. but that still does not mean that I will ever work for peanuts ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The pre-SDL method | Jul 24, 2020 |
At the beginning of this millennium, when Trados was mostly German, a common basis for compensation when using Trados was along the lines of 1/3-2/3-3/3. Maybe because Trados 3 cost twice as much as TGB prices today.
Not only was it easy to remember, but it sort of reflected the time saved when using Trados:
1/3 of full rate for 100% matches/reps (saving 2/3 of your time rereading reps and exact matches)
2/3 of full rate for 75-99% matches (saving 1/3 of your time... See more At the beginning of this millennium, when Trados was mostly German, a common basis for compensation when using Trados was along the lines of 1/3-2/3-3/3. Maybe because Trados 3 cost twice as much as TGB prices today.
Not only was it easy to remember, but it sort of reflected the time saved when using Trados:
1/3 of full rate for 100% matches/reps (saving 2/3 of your time rereading reps and exact matches)
2/3 of full rate for 75-99% matches (saving 1/3 of your time on average to fix a fuzzy match)
3/3 of full rate for 0-74% matches (in most languages, I suspect a match below 75% is worthless)
Nowadays, on a moderately "similar" project, some agencies can cut this ancient resulting "weighted word count" (ie. your earnings) by half. They do that using the unit rate agreed while applying surrealistic discount grids to it: reps-95-100% matches at 1/10 of full rate, 94-75% at 1/2 of full rate, even 74-50% at 4/5 of full rate.
And of course while enabling the appropriate settings that lower weighted word counts even more: 0% penalty for tags, internal fuzzies, etc.
Needless to say, "world-class efficiencies" and "productivity breakthroughs" gained with improved CAT environments over the years come nowhere near a translation speed boosted by 50%.
CAT tools are a brilliant idea, but it was perverted and has eventually converted translator time savings into agency cost savings, at the exclusive expense of translators.
Your agency may call their fee calculations the "SDL method", and you can call yours the sustainability method.
A transparent discount grid is as important as a transparent unit rate to ensure you will not get ripped off on the first project.
Fortunately, there are still agencies that understand what a CAT tool is meant to do.
Philippe ▲ Collapse
| | | | Vincent Lemma
Italy
Local time: 01:29
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Philippe Etienne wrote:
At the beginning of this millennium, when Trados was mostly German, a common basis for compensation when using Trados was along the lines of 1/3-2/3-3/3. Maybe because Trados 3 cost twice as much as TGB prices today.
Not only was it easy to remember, but it sort of reflected the time saved when using Trados:
1/3 of full rate for 100% matches/reps (saving 2/3 of your time rereading reps and exact matches)
2/3 of full rate for 75-99% matches (saving 1/3 of your time on average to fix a fuzzy match)
3/3 of full rate for 0-74% matches (in most languages, I suspect a match below 75% is worthless)
Nowadays, on a moderately "similar" project, some agencies can cut this ancient resulting "weighted word count" (ie. your earnings) by half. They do that using the unit rate agreed while applying surrealistic discount grids to it: reps-95-100% matches at 1/10 of full rate, 94-75% at 1/2 of full rate, even 74-50% at 4/5 of full rate.
And of course while enabling the appropriate settings that lower weighted word counts even more: 0% penalty for tags, internal fuzzies, etc.
Needless to say, "world-class efficiencies" and "productivity breakthroughs" gained with improved CAT environments over the years come nowhere near a translation speed boosted by 50%.
CAT tools are a brilliant idea, but it was perverted and has eventually converted translator time savings into agency cost savings, at the exclusive expense of translators.
Your agency may call their fee calculations the "SDL method", and you can call yours the sustainability method.
A transparent discount grid is as important as a transparent unit rate to ensure you will not get ripped off on the first project.
Fortunately, there are still agencies that understand what a CAT tool is meant to do.
Philippe
A brilliant analysis if I do say so.
Indeed, you hit the nail on the head with this, and I see that this agency in question is just going after extra savings.
I'd rather pass these agencies up as they truly do not value the work carried out and sooner or later something is sure to go south.
It kind of makes one just want to focus on self-marketing and get direct client. Hey, if they can do it, then so can I
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| Right or wrong? | Jul 25, 2020 |
Whenever a specific system is used, you need to understand how the system works. The next step is to decide whether that system enables you to work for a rate that you consider acceptable. If it is, you can accept. If not, you can decline.
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Philippe Etienne wrote:
CAT tools are a brilliant idea, but it was perverted and has eventually converted translator time savings into agency cost savings, at the exclusive expense of translators.
Your agency may call their fee calculations the "SDL method", and you can call yours the sustainability method.
A transparent discount grid is as important as a transparent unit rate to ensure you will not get ripped off on the first project.
Fortunately, there are still agencies that understand what a CAT tool is meant to do.
Philippe
It really did go pear-shaped when agencies started saying that they will pay less as they are giving you more work thanks to CAT tools. One apple tree may produce many apples at a time but a translator cannot. (Nor can they produce apples, I suppose, but you see what I'm getting at)!
[Edited at 2020-07-25 15:28 GMT]
[Edited at 2020-07-25 15:28 GMT]
| | | | | I would go back still further | Jul 25, 2020 |
Philippe Etienne wrote:
At the beginning of this millennium, when Trados was mostly German, a common basis for compensation when using Trados was along the lines of 1/3-2/3-3/3. Maybe because Trados 3 cost twice as much as TGB prices today.
Philippe [/quote]
Last century, I'd say until the nineties or even later, a translator was a well estimated professional, and even if in 1984 in Stuttgart has been created the translation software Trados, very few people of the industry knew about it, and it's not surprising if you consider how little translators used a computer at that time (I started to work seriously with a PC only in 1987, if I remember well, but I was still an exception). Translators were treated as professionals who fix their own rates and decide if and when a surcharge is owed and which deadline they can offer and so on. Rates then were higher than today, inflation-corrected.
Later on, maybe at the beginning of this millennium, when PCs were used by every translator, Trados managed to convince the translation agencies that only translators that own their programme shall be considered Good Translators and their fuzzy match scheme shall be the Only Right Thing for everyone. The translators not only started to earn less than before (because the time saving often is more worth than the discount, and the agencies became more and more demanding and cheeky and were willing to pay always less and less, and surcharges became a concept of the past), but they also purchased out of their pocket the expensive software and learnt it in their spare time, as they have been convinced, or convinced themselves, that this was the only way to get jobs. And the rates continued to drop...
I don't know whether this was a coincidence or not, but I believe it wasn't. Anyway, like I wrote several times in this forum, I never have used Trados and never will, as a matter of principle. There are many very good and much more inexpensive (and probably easier) CAT tools outside there. Personally, I have never experienced any inconvenience not using Trados. CAT tools are indeed very useful, as long as agencies don't require that everyone uses only one and is forced to apply their scheme.
[Bearbeitet am 2020-07-26 19:27 GMT]
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