和为贵

On 2003-05-12 20:38, Y_Bill wrote:

Freezie sounds a little freaky that might seem marketably slicky, but it reminds us nothing of the oriental flavor it\'s supposed to have. Though I really don\'t want to take a stand as to what the proper trademark should be. By the way it\'s 朹朹檜丆not 曺曺檜 we are talking about.



yes, typo on my part, see above. Whether Freezies (TM) can remind anyone of oriental flavours that is another story. I was just talking about the term that can be easily identified by any North American immediately.



Quote:

On 2003-05-12 20:38, Y_Bill wrote:

If you say 梞恖 is not a politically correct term, then the mental political system you take as a reference might need to be somewhat reformed.



Obviously our cultural upbringing is very much different.



But seems to me that reforms in intolerance and discrimination in Asian countries remain slow comparing to many western nations. Only recently did the HK\'s Legco starting to CONSIDER making racial discrimination illegal. That\'s some indication on how far Asian countries have to go! Never mind gay rights and same-sex benefits.



What really needs to be reformed here is the people\'s mentality. It took decades for Canada to rid of racial reference in the media and from the government; and decades of public education to change the people\'s mentality that what makes Canada what it is today. How long does it take to educate people of Asia to start THINKING the same way is anybody\'s guess.



Quote:

On 2003-05-12 20:38, Y_Bill wrote:

梞恖 can sound last century if you just watched Last Emperor; we are in the 20th century while we still use 彫恖 that was used by Confucius more than 20 centuries ago.... No 惣恖 please, it\'s either funnily archaic or freakily eccentric. We say 奜殸恖 or 惣曽恖 or more colloquially 榁奜 or 梞恖.



As a cantonese speaker I certainly don\'t use the word 彫恖 unless it\'s for a backstabber. 惣恖 is certainly possible in Cantonese, but definitely nothing funny or freaky about it.惣曽恖 on the other hand is cumbersome and reduntdant. Of course these are not as colloquial as the infamous gwVi lou, which many may find offensive, even most of the time the speaker and even I may not mean it that way.



But that\'s fine, i\'m sure that\'s what American speakers might\'ve thought when they blurped out jap, kike, nigger, or ching etc. Of course one may say Blacks use the N word all the time among themselves. Well that doesn\'t mean it\'s OK for outsiders to refer them as so. Don\'t believe me go into any ethnic neighbourhoods around North America and recite racial slangs in the nicest way imaginable and see what kind of reactions you\'ll get.



Quote:

On 2003-05-12 20:38, Y_Bill wrote:

True enough, a person should not be judged by his or her ethinic origin, however, why do we have to be so sensitive about how we refer to 攪嵄梞恖 if we are confident we don\'t mean bad when we say so?



But why was it neccessary in the first place to put a label on them when it wasn\'t relevant to the argument (supposedly)? IF, say it was relevant to the argument, then wouldn\'t the intention be anything but good? Just because the name of the person is not Chinese or look Chinese, then the person is automatically a 梞恖 ?



That\'s one reason I haven\'t put my actual name on here because I hope my work is not judged by what I am but what I can do. Does it matter whether I\'m Chinese or not now? One may point out that I was born in HK, now does that automatically make me a Chinese?



That\'s the whole philosophy behind the Canadian social mentality that I\'ve grown to find so appealing. For example there is no more mention of the race of the criminal in the media anymore. Unless it\'s for identification purpose.



Another indication of where things at: On a CV, an attached photo is pretty much a common practice in Asia and Europe, even sometimes required. But not so in NA, or at least in Canada. While asking the incumbant to declare his/her ethnic origin during a job interview is pretty much against the anti-discrimination code here in Canada. This again speaks volume of disparity of values between countries, it definitely reflects the mentality of their citizens.



This mentality of racial profiling (or deprofiling for that matter) is much more \"advance\" than say, the US i think, a self-claiming melting-pot where borders between races are still pretty much more apparent than in Canada.



This topic is far from low class taste, unless one make it so. This debate is still pretty much alive in North America, and very much current, and by no means it can be ignored.



-Kvasir

[ This Message was edited by: Kvasir on 2003-05-13 00:56] ▲ Collapse

On 2003-05-13 01:10, Y_Bill wrote:

I don\'t know who has the mentality of racial profiling, or regional profiling (Asian societies are slow...) or even breeding profiling (different upbringing).



I\'m afraid you were reading too much into things, i was merely talking about changes/reforms in Asian societies are slow, not the societies themselves. And I definitely wasn\'t talking about breeding, as in family/root/elite etc., I was talking about upbringing under different cultural influence, social values, maybe even political.



Quote:

To say 西方人 is cumbersome and redundant compared to 西人 is a typical case of self-inflicted irony or farce if you really know Chinese properly.



Again, please don\'t over analyse. i was only saying 西方人 isn\'t a colloquial Cantonese term.



Quote:

Let me do a mental profiling: who are those who constantly feel being ill treated or verbally attacked and uncontrollably cling to the trivialities in life or in language?



If you are referring to me, i definitely am not feeling attacked. In fact i\'m not even offended by the said controversial term. I\'m just pointing out terms with questionable etymologoes should be used with care and consideration, and not lightly.



Quote:

Besides we are not in a law court, nobody needs to defend his position in a legal and formal and therefore emotionally damaging manner.



indeed, i don\'t think you need to unless you feel you have been personally attacked.



Again, i don\'t see how any of my points are any less intellectual than other comments made here. I was merely commenting that racial terms positive/neutral/negative or otherwise, should be used with care.



Perhap this once again demonstrate the difference in social expectations where in North America racial issues are much more sensitive and are not taken lightly.



Afterall this is the place where political correctness is so revently preached here.



If i sound like some dumb three-year-old rambling feel free to ignore.



-Kvasir ▲ Collapse

On 2003-05-13 11:27, Y_Bill wrote:

I thought North Americans never want to deviate far from common sense which oozes in Hollywood movies and pop culture,...



ah... it\'s dangerous to bring hollywood into the picture, since the popular show biz has done nothing but intensify racial gaps in NA. A few elites in Hollywood churn out

movies by the dozens each year, with only boxoffice and merchadise in mind. So never expect common sense and realism from hollywood. How often do you see inter-racial couples on screen? How often do you see positive middle class suburban black roles in movies? Or if there are, the question of race bound to surface somewhere in the story. In another words, they have to be there for a reason, otherwise their roles may as well be taken over by white actors. afterall it\'s been well-researched that TV commercials with white actors sells much more than the ones using black actors. Similar singaporean research showed cosmetics modelled by caucasians sells more than the ones modelled by asians.



A recent example can be seen from the popular sit-com \"Friends\". The show has recently seen an addition of a major black female character. For the first time she was not protraited with the stereotypical image of a black woman usually depicted in movies and shows. She is instead intelligent and well-educated. When asked why it took so long for such an addition be made to the show, the producer answered (forgot the exact quote): \"People like the Friends simply don\'t have black friends.\" Shocking statement indeed, considering whites only accounts for a third of the population in NYC where the show is set.



So are they giving themselves a pat on the back by taking such a revolutionary step?



What about last year (was it last year?) when the Oscar\'s Best actor and Best actress were won by Denzel Washington and Halle Barry. The Academy stressed so much, and made such a big deal that they has finally gone colour-blind. But the million-dollar question was, why all the self-congratulating when it took SO LONG to achieve this? Or were they merely doing this just to show that they are colour-blind?



In Canada, I believe there is already some kind of a code in place to ensure that proportion of visible minorities appeared in tv shows, media, commercials reflects Canada\'s multicultural spectrum.



But I agree, doesn\'t this in turn create another danger here? Would race then become a factor in casting? \"Sorry we already have casted enough white characters, we are still looking for anyone who can LOOK native though!\"



Quote:

On 2003-05-13 11:27, Y_Bill wrote:

...maybe Asian North American mentality is a

different story? If so, isn\'t it some food for thought?



definitely not an issue concerning only Asian North Americans. The mere implication of terms and stereotypes could often land public figures in the hot seat.



Two years ago when Toronto was up for a bid for the 2008 olympics, the colourful Mayor Lastman of Toronto explained why he wouldn\'t want to go visit Africa. His mere descriptions of his fear of tribal customs swiftly led him consequently to apologise profusely to the people of the city in front of the IOC the day after. So far as people blamed he was one of the reasons Toronto lost the bid.



Another example, a certain Saskatchewan MP or minister of some sort, can\'t remember which, on funding for a natives drop-in center or some kind of a home, said the money can be better spend on anti-drug and rehab programs. The mere association of the two definitely incite old stereotypes. By saying it was not an intended association won\'t dig you out of the hole either, people hear what they think they hear. The day after, the public got the apologies they demanded (wasn\'t sure if a resignation was involved).



I think it is great that such questionable comments, innocent or otherwise, are often quickly scrutinised by members of the public and the press. This, i think, is healthy, a reality check to remind us that there are limits of what one can or should say in public, afterall there is always that one person that might find it objectable.



Quote:

There is a great man in history who grew out of the formerly \"uncivilized aboriginals\" in Guangdong--the great Buddhist reformist Huineng. As a Cantonese speaker, I hope you have read some of his teachings.



Nope, never heard of him, was brought up under \"western religious\" influences.



-kvasir

[ This Message was edited by: Kvasir on 2003-05-14 23:38] ▲ Collapse