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wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:17
Chinese to English
+ ...
My thoughts Sep 9, 2007

I'd like to say a few words on how I see this situation.

First of all I think the majority of us who come here and visit mostly have a common goal, which is to promote the exchange of ideas, learn from other colleagues, and improve ourselves as freelance translators. By and large, our individual goals line up with those set out by the site. Of course there are those of us who are just here to chat ... but that's another story. ...
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I'd like to say a few words on how I see this situation.

First of all I think the majority of us who come here and visit mostly have a common goal, which is to promote the exchange of ideas, learn from other colleagues, and improve ourselves as freelance translators. By and large, our individual goals line up with those set out by the site. Of course there are those of us who are just here to chat ... but that's another story.

As they say, it takes all kinds. IMO the translation world is no different. Hopefully with more education, being well read, and being exposed to different cultures, we as professional translators have formed better moral standards for ourselves.

A moderator's job is a tough one. Like Kevin said, there's definitely a learning curve involved. IMO there's a difference between enforcing the rules of this site and policing individual moral standards. Way back when I used the analogy of people having different personal judgments on the right or wrong of reusing an accidentally uncancelled stamp; I'm sure most people just laughed it off. But really it is not all that different. A certain practice which one person may take for granted doesn't necessarily conform to everyone's personal beliefs. I agree with Yueyin, that as a moderator, one needs to distinguish between enforcing the rules and being an active forum participant, especially one with a strong personal belief and conviction. It's difficult to wear two hats. But to do a good job as a moderator, one has to be consciously aware of the two different roles. I think where most of the problems arose in the past, was where Jianjun himself was one of the parties directly involved in some misunderstanding of some business dealing, or truly had a different opinion about certain business practices. Situations like this, it takes a lot of experience and finesse as a moderator to be subjective, resolve those differences, and achieve a fair and balanced outcome.

I think it is great that Jianjun actively participates in our forum discussions. I'm sure a lot of people agree with some of the things he believes in and are also against some of the things he speaks out against - including myself on some of the issues. But these are personal opinions on issues where often there's not always a clear-cut right or wrong. So IMO it's always prudent to practice what one believes in, reserve judgment, and be less critical of others. I'm also quite positive that Jianjun could learn from past experience, and in the future be more diplomatic in phrasing some of his thoughts and opinions. After all, we're not here to intentionally judge or offend other people.



[Edited at 2007-09-09 19:38]
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Shang
Shang
China
Local time: 07:17
English to Chinese
走自己的路,让别人抄去吧! Sep 9, 2007

古今中外,天下文章一大抄,地球人都知道。别人抄你的东西,他/她也抢不走你的生意。假如他/她没有金刚钻,写得天花乱坠也不顶用,客户终究不会买他/她的帐。为这等小事耿耿于怀,太没有肚量了吧。谁敢说自己写的东西都是“原创”?做点有益的事情多好,天天纠缠这些鸡毛蒜皮的小事,真是无聊。

Wenjer Leuschel wrote:

Jianjun Zhang wrote:

有意思的是,这些同仁都是受过被侵权者直接或间接帮助的人。他们业务做得来做不来是一码事,侵权问题则是另一码事。


恩將仇報的事常見,一點都不驚奇。抄襲別人的東西或者把別人的意見掩蓋掉,然後變成自己的意見發表的事,也很屢見不鮮。如果為了侵權要爭訟,那得看如何訴訟,官司訟得贏不贏。能贏的官司儘管打,不能贏的官司,摸摸鼻子,反正人家佔據的勢位強、姿態高,等著看到底誰走得長遠就是。

我說的也是兩碼子事。


[Edited at 2007-09-09 15:44]


 
Shang
Shang
China
Local time: 07:17
English to Chinese
顶!顶!顶! Sep 9, 2007

Yueyin Sun wrote:

Jianjun,

你害怕我的批评,封我的帖子,跟我说若我对你有意见就 “submit a support ticket”,而你自己却可以任意发帖子,想怎么说就怎么说。说实在的,对于你屡次利用论坛攻击侮辱其他同仁的行为,我确实考虑过submit a support ticket。但Kevin再三劝我,说你年轻,要我给你一次机会,所以我至今没有submit the support ticket。然而,你的作风并没有丝毫改变,甚至变本加厉。因此,我将重新考虑我的态度!


 
Andreas Yan
Andreas Yan  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:17
English to Chinese
+ ...
拭目以待! Sep 9, 2007

Yueyin Sun wrote:

Jianjun:

.....

我决不认为你的上司会支持你的这些犯规行为,因为那将失信于广大会员和使用者!他们是否能正确地对待你的错误,那将是Proz.com规则的试金石!须知,这里绝不会像中国那样官官相护!我要是说得有不当之处,欢迎你批评驳斥!


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:17
Chinese to English
+ ...
Morality and Justice Sep 9, 2007

If you guys don't mind, I'd like to digress a bit and use an example to illustrate that for somethings, sometimes there is no absolute right or wrong, even when our own moral judgment says otherwise.

I just happened to post this link in the thread 奇闻异事 the other day. I'm posting the whole story below once more just in case some people cannot open the link ...



http://www.sptimes.com/2006/10/05/Tampabay/5_shrimp__5_scallops_.shtml

5 shrimp, 5 scallops, 1 unhappy diner

Feeling shorted, Ralph Paul didn't pay his tab. Not even when police said he should. On Wednesday, he had his day in court.

By CHRIS TISCH
Published October 5, 2006

LARGO - This is a story about a guy who didn't see enough food in his seafood. He found the jumbo shrimp and bay scallops in his pasta dish to be a little, um, shrimpy.

Ralph Paul ate the seafood off the top of the pasta, then sent the dish back and asked the server to take it off his bill. When the restaurant didn't do that, he left without paying the $46 tab, which included an entree of mussels eaten by his girlfriend, coffee and dessert.

A worker at Angellino's Italian Restaurant in Palm Harbor got the tag number off his silver BMW convertible and called police.

Sheriff's deputies called Paul, a 54-year-old retired U.S. Air Force lieutenant colonel from New Port Richey, and told him he had committed a crime by not paying his bill. He could be arrested. All Paul had to do was pay the 46 bucks.

Most people would have done that.

Not Paul.

He said he couldn't look himself in the mirror if he paid full price for such substandard fare.

"I've been all over the world, and if you're not happy with a meal, you don't have to pay for it," he told deputies. "I'll take my chances in court."

He was charged with defrauding the restaurant of its bill, a second-degree misdemeanor with a maximum penalty of 60 days in jail.

Paul hired a big shot New York lawyer who charges $500 an hour. He refused to plead no contest and pay a fine. He went to trial.

Which brings us to Wednesday.

Inside a Pinellas criminal courtroom, six jurors, an alternate juror, two bailiffs, two court clerks and one judge watched for nearly seven hours as two prosecutors and a defense lawyer argued over the size of shrimp and how many bites of seafood make an entree.

"He had eaten all the seafood off the dish," Prosecutor Chris Ballard told the jury. "He had eaten some of the pasta and some of the vegetables in that dish."

The entree Paul ordered is called "Shrimp and Scallop Verdura."

"Verdura in Italian," defense lawyer John Lauro told the jury in all seriousness, "means true."

Actually, it mean "vegetables." Verita means truth.

* * *

It all started like this:

On March 31, Paul picked up his girlfriend from the airport. They decided to head to dinner and picked Angellino's, where they had dined before and liked it.

They ordered iced teas. She got mussels. He got the Verdura, offered at $15.99.

The dish arrived. There was a lot of pasta, Paul thought, but not enough seafood. It hadn't been listed as a pasta dish on the menu.

He counted five scallops and five shrimp, ate them all and looked for more. He also recalls having two bites of pasta and two bites of vegetables.

"I had only taken a total of 14 bites out of the whole meal," Paul later said.

Paul asked the waitress if he should have gotten more shrimp and scallops. The chef said he got exactly what went into every Verdura, a popular item at the restaurant.

Paul sent the dish back and asked that it be removed from his bill. He ordered dessert and coffee.

When the bill arrived, the Verdura was still on there.

Soon, Paul was in an argument with the restaurant's manager and owner. They wanted him to pay for the entire entree. Paul said he would pay to cover only the seafood he ate, not the vegetables and pasta.

The restaurant refused, so he left. Later, Paul asked the Better Business Bureau to mediate. But the restaurant, which has received no other complaints with the BBB in the past three years, would not do that.

* * *

Paul says he lives by a code that he learned in the Air Force. He won't be intimidated by anyone. His code served him well in his 26 years in the military, where he flew fighter planes, he says.

"It's easy to think, 'Well, it's $46, why go through all the trouble?' But Mr. Paul lives in a different world," Lauro told the jury. "He lives with a code. A code of honor. There are people who are willing to compromise, who are willing to settle. That's not Ralph Paul."

Traci English, the waitress who served Paul that night, wondered about that.

"So he lives on a code," she said, outside the courtroom. "So anyone could say they have a code and leave without paying?"

Neither Paul nor Lauro would say how much he spent on his defense.

"Let me put it this way," Lauro said. "We're expensive. He spent a lot of money."

Jurors, who smirked during arguments early in the day, began to act perturbed after 5 p.m. - especially as lawyers fired objections and called for bench conferences with the judge. They finally got the case about 6:45 p.m.

The jury took less than a half-hour to find Paul not guilty.

Jury foreman Stacie Dull said jurors didn't think Paul meant to defraud anyone when he got to the restaurant. They also were impressed that he tried to pay for a portion of the bill.

"It showed he made an effort," she said. "If he had done nothing, it probably would have been different."

Paul was pleased to have won. But he would have been happy even with a loss, he said, because he stood up for what he believed in.

"It would have been worth it either way for me," he said. "This institution is what I fought for 26 years. It's what separates us from the rest of the world. I got to have my day in court."




After reading this story, let me ask you guys - who is right? who is wrong? Has justice really been served? ... The jury seems to think so.

Which brings us back to the issue at hand ...

Let's try to get our minor differences resolved among ourselves. All it takes is some give and take by all parties. IMO escalation to management is not always the best route to take to resolve a problem. Keep in mind, sometimes what appears to be a slam dunk in right or wrong, even in the court of law, does not always turn out to be so.

Plus does authority always have the right answers and decisions?


~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Important disclaimer: The reason I used this story was just to prove a point. By no means am I hinting at anyone here being in a similar situation to any of the players in the story.



[Edited at 2007-09-10 12:58]


 
Mark Xiang
Mark Xiang
Local time: 07:17
English to Chinese
+ ...
Puzzled Sep 10, 2007

Yueyin Sun wrote:

Jianjun,

你害怕我的批评,封我的帖子,跟我说若我对你有意见就 “submit a support ticket”,而你自己却可以任意发帖子,想怎么说就怎么说。说实在的,对于你屡次利用论坛攻击侮辱其他同仁的行为,我确实考虑过submit a support ticket。但Kevin再三劝我,说你年轻,要我给你一次机会,所以我至今没有submit the support ticket。然而,你的作风并没有丝毫改变,甚至变本加厉。因此,我将重新考虑我的态度!


作为KudoZ English-Chinese的Moderator,有权封论坛的帖子?

Mark


 
Libin PhD
Libin PhD  Identity Verified
Chinese to English
+ ...
Agreed Sep 10, 2007

I completely agree with wherestip's opinion and I also agree with Yueyin's points about a moderator's obligation to separate moderating responsibility from the moderator's own posting. You cannot be a referee and a player at the same time.

IMO, a moderator's job is to serve the community, not to rule the people here. He/she should be a problem solver, not a trouble maker on the forum.

If a server cannot get along with the people s/he serves, s/he should be removed so
... See more
I completely agree with wherestip's opinion and I also agree with Yueyin's points about a moderator's obligation to separate moderating responsibility from the moderator's own posting. You cannot be a referee and a player at the same time.

IMO, a moderator's job is to serve the community, not to rule the people here. He/she should be a problem solver, not a trouble maker on the forum.

If a server cannot get along with the people s/he serves, s/he should be removed so that other people who are more suitable for job can be selected to serve. As they say in most American companies or other organizations, get along or get out.

In addition to what Yueyin points out, one thing I noticed in the past is that Jianjun sometimes open a topic and add two or three postings there, then block it. To me, that is an abuse of a moderator's power and it is not fair to other users.



wherestip wrote:

I'd like to say a few words on how I see this situation.

First of all I think the majority of us who come here and visit mostly have a common goal, which is to promote the exchange of ideas, learn from other colleagues, and improve ourselves as freelance translators. By and large, our individual goals line up with those set out by the site. Of course there are those of us who are just here to chat ... but that's another story.

As they say, it takes all kinds. IMO the translation world is no different. Hopefully with more education, being well read, and being exposed to different cultures, we as professional translators have formed better moral standards for ourselves.

A moderator's job is a tough one. Like Kevin said, there's definitely a learning curve involved. IMO there's a difference between enforcing the rules of this site and policing individual moral standards. Way back when I used the analogy of people having different personal judgments on the right or wrong of reusing an accidentally uncancelled stamp; I'm sure most people just laughed it off. But really it is not all that different. A certain practice which one person may take for granted doesn't necessarily conform to everyone's personal beliefs. I agree with Yueyin, that as a moderator, one needs to distinguish between enforcing the rules and being an active forum participant, especially one with a strong personal belief and conviction. It's difficult to wear two hats. But to do a good job as a moderator, one has to be consciously aware of the two different roles. I think where most of the problems arose in the past, was where Jianjun himself was one of the parties directly involved in some misunderstanding of some business dealing, or truly had a different opinion about certain business practices. Situations like this, it takes a lot of experience and finesse as a moderator to be subjective, resolve those differences, and achieve a fair and balanced outcome.

I think it is great that Jianjun actively participates in our forum discussions. I'm sure a lot of people agree with some of the things he believes in and are also against some of the things he speaks out against - including myself on some of the issues. But these are personal opinions on issues where often there's not always a clear-cut right or wrong. So IMO it's always prudent to practice what one believes in, reserve judgment, and be less critical of others. I'm also quite positive that Jianjun could learn from past experience, and in the future be more diplomatic in phrasing some of his thoughts and opinions. After all, we're not here to intentionally judge or offend other people.



[Edited at 2007-09-09 19:38]



[Edited at 2007-09-10 03:50]
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Libin PhD
Libin PhD  Identity Verified
Chinese to English
+ ...
顶一个! Sep 10, 2007

Shang wrote:

古今中外,天下文章一大抄,地球人都知道。别人抄你的东西,他/她也抢不走你的生意。假如他/她没有金刚钻,写得天花乱坠也不顶用,客户终究不会买他/她的帐。为这等小事耿耿于怀,太没有肚量了吧。谁敢说自己写的东西都是“原创”?做点有益的事情多好,天天纠缠这些鸡毛蒜皮的小事,真是无聊。

[Edited at 2007-09-09 15:44]


我以前也在论坛上发过帖,揭发一位住在马来西亚的译者抄我的简历,将我的ATA证书篡改成她的,提醒翻译公司要小心。那个当事人完全是陌生人,而且篡改ATA证书比一般抄抄简历严重得多。如果那个抄袭者是我们论坛上的一个用户,我肯定不会公布出来,如果想点到为止说一下,也只会是私下。以前就收到好几位抄了我的简历又发回来给我的,上面都有电话和电子邮件联系信息,想批评一下对方也很容易,只是我一次也没有找过他们的麻烦,因为我不相信他们能够抢走我的客户。心想如果能够对他们有点帮助也不坏,毕竟只是少数人。就算他们能够抢走我的几个客户,也不是什么大不了的事情,因为我的客户每年都在增加。市场上有各种各样的客户,有的喜欢便宜,有的并不在乎多花一点钱找高质量的翻译,不同的客户有不同的需要。他们和我服务的完全是不同的客户群,并不会对我有多少不利,所以当然就不会去为难人家了,而且也不想浪费自己的时间。

[Edited at 2007-09-10 05:18]


 
Libin PhD
Libin PhD  Identity Verified
Chinese to English
+ ...
If you make a motion, I will second. Sep 10, 2007

Yueyin Sun wrote:

Jianjun,

你害怕我的批评,封我的帖子,跟我说若我对你有意见就 “submit a support ticket”,而你自己却可以任意发帖子,想怎么说就怎么说。说实在的,对于你屡次利用论坛攻击侮辱其他同仁的行为,我确实考虑过submit a support ticket。但Kevin再三劝我,说你年轻,要我给你一次机会,所以我至今没有submit the support ticket。然而,你的作风并没有丝毫改变,甚至变本加厉。因此,我将重新考虑我的态度!


If you make a motion, I will second.


 
OneTa
OneTa  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 07:17
Japanese to English
+ ...
尽管 Sep 10, 2007

尽管我在第一时刻,支持乐音的发帖,但我觉得Jianjun及时锁住那个帖子,主要是不想让事情恶化。

 
Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Wenjer Leuschel (X)  Identity Verified
Taiwan
Local time: 07:17
English to Chinese
+ ...
The motion will be seconded by quite a few people. Sep 10, 2007

Libin PhD wrote:
Yueyin Sun wrote:

Jianjun,

你害怕我的批评,封我的帖子,跟我说若我对你有意见就 “submit a support ticket”,而你自己却可以任意发帖子,想怎么说就怎么说。说实在的,对于你屡次利用论坛攻击侮辱其他同仁的行为,我确实考虑过submit a support ticket。但Kevin再三劝我,说你年轻,要我给你一次机会,所以我至今没有submit the support ticket。然而,你的作风并没有丝毫改变,甚至变本加厉。因此,我将重新考虑我的态度!


If you make a motion, I will second.


However, I am, as many other are, not of the opinion to remove him as a moderator. He shall learn to get along with peers, knowing that the truth has not only one facet and perceptions could be treacherous or simply wrong. Judging people too soon, based on one's own perception, could lead to injustice. This could be a lesson learned by most of us: You cannot cover the problem and hope that it goes away; the matter must be dealt with from within and resolved by without. Anyway, our main concern is: We don't need a "Cyber Rambo" (网络悍警) among us, but we need someone who takes care of English-Chinese KudoZ.


[Edited at 2007-09-10 07:58]


 
Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Wenjer Leuschel (X)  Identity Verified
Taiwan
Local time: 07:17
English to Chinese
+ ...
I am a bit late to this. Sep 10, 2007

wherestip wrote:

...
Plus does authority always have the right answers and decisions?


Hi, Steve,

I am a bit late to your posting. I just want to let you know: I am no Ralph Paul at all, but I want to prevent further damages in our community.

As to your last question, I must say, it wasn't the case in my case and it might probably be the same with the case of the present alleged "plagiarism" or even with some other cases in the future.

You know, there's a load of compromin' on the road to everybody's horizon, not just mine. But do you think it's fair to bind someone's hands and punch him --- while his mouth is stuffed with a towel? Just imagine how many people got treated like that since the history began!


[Edited at 2007-09-10 12:24]


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:17
Chinese to English
+ ...
Respect Diversity Sep 10, 2007

Wenjer Leuschel wrote:

wherestip wrote:

...
Plus does authority always have the right answers and decisions?


Hi, Steve,

I am a bit late to your posting. I just want to let you know: I am no Ralph Paul at all, but I want to prevent further damages in our community.

As to your last question, I must say, it wasn't the case in my case and it might probably be the same with the case of the present alleged "plagiarism" or even with some other cases in the future.

You know, there's a load of compromin' on the road to everybody's horizon, not just mine...



Wenjer,

I've already added a disclaimer to my post from yesterday. By no means was I hinting at similarities between anything that happened in our forum and the facts in the story.

What I did want to do is to prove that in some situations there isn't always an absolute right or wrong. Compromising is indeed the most sensible option.

I hope we can all learn from our experience, respect diversity, and look forward.



[Edited at 2007-09-10 17:33]


 
pkchan
pkchan  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 18:17
Membro (2006)
English to Chinese
+ ...
是消防員出動的時候了 Sep 10, 2007

有請DAVID登一點賞心悅目的照片,轉移視線,調和情緒,沖淡怨氣。

 
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