Nov 19, 2016 12:54
7 yrs ago
20 viewers *
French term
France
assurances
Non-PRO
French to English
Law/Patents
Law: Contract(s)
contrat de maitrise d’ouvrage déléguée
Hi all,
I'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around the meaning of the "assurances" in this context :
"Les Parties concluront avec le Notaire des Cédants, à la Date de Réalisation, une convention de séquestre financier (la "Convention de Séquestre Suivi Travaux") dont un modèle figure en Annexe 8.2 d'un montant de six millions d’euros (6.000.000 €) prélevé sur le Prix (le "Séquestre Suivi Travaux"), étant précisé que le Séquestre Suivi Travaux sera libéré en faveur des Cédants dans les conditions suivantes :
...
...
à hauteur de six cent mille euros (EUR 600.000 €), libérés comme suit :
- quatre cent quatre-vingt mille euros (480.000 €) dans les dix (10) Jours Ouvrés de l’expiration de l'année de garantie de parfait achèvement délivrée par le Promoteur ;
- cent vingt mille euros (120.000 €) dans les dix (10) Jours Ouvrés de la levée des désordres ou de la prise en charge par les *****assurances***** relatives aux articles 1792 et suivants du Code civil des travaux de réparation."cent vingt mille euros (120.000 €) dans les dix (10) Jours Ouvrés de la levée des désordres ou de la prise en charge par les assurances relatives aux articles 1792 et suivants du Code civil des travaux de réparation."
So, I see two possible interpretations for "assurances" here:
1) within ten (10) Business Days of the waiver for damages or of the coverage by the insurance (policies) in relation to Articles 1792 et seq. of the Civil Code of the repair work."
2) within ten (10) Business Days of the waiver for damages or of the coverage by the assurances (i.e. guarantees) relating to Articles 1792 et seq. of the Civil Code of repair work."
Any help in understanding this would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers !
I'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around the meaning of the "assurances" in this context :
"Les Parties concluront avec le Notaire des Cédants, à la Date de Réalisation, une convention de séquestre financier (la "Convention de Séquestre Suivi Travaux") dont un modèle figure en Annexe 8.2 d'un montant de six millions d’euros (6.000.000 €) prélevé sur le Prix (le "Séquestre Suivi Travaux"), étant précisé que le Séquestre Suivi Travaux sera libéré en faveur des Cédants dans les conditions suivantes :
...
...
à hauteur de six cent mille euros (EUR 600.000 €), libérés comme suit :
- quatre cent quatre-vingt mille euros (480.000 €) dans les dix (10) Jours Ouvrés de l’expiration de l'année de garantie de parfait achèvement délivrée par le Promoteur ;
- cent vingt mille euros (120.000 €) dans les dix (10) Jours Ouvrés de la levée des désordres ou de la prise en charge par les *****assurances***** relatives aux articles 1792 et suivants du Code civil des travaux de réparation."cent vingt mille euros (120.000 €) dans les dix (10) Jours Ouvrés de la levée des désordres ou de la prise en charge par les assurances relatives aux articles 1792 et suivants du Code civil des travaux de réparation."
So, I see two possible interpretations for "assurances" here:
1) within ten (10) Business Days of the waiver for damages or of the coverage by the insurance (policies) in relation to Articles 1792 et seq. of the Civil Code of the repair work."
2) within ten (10) Business Days of the waiver for damages or of the coverage by the assurances (i.e. guarantees) relating to Articles 1792 et seq. of the Civil Code of repair work."
Any help in understanding this would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers !
Proposed translations
(English)
| 5 +5 | the insurance company (-ies) |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
|
| 5 | guarantees (your second choice) |
ph-b (X)
|
| 4 +1 | warranties |
B D Finch
|
Change log
Nov 19, 2016 13:33: Rob Grayson changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"
Nov 19, 2016 14:34: Yolanda Broad changed "Term asked" from "assurances (here)" to "assurances"
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:
Non-PRO (3): mchd, writeaway, Rob Grayson
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Proposed translations
+5
11 mins
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Native in English
Specializes in field
Psychologist, Court-certified legal
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
172
French term (edited):
les assurances
Selected
the insurance company (-ies)
it simply means that the prejudice/loss, whatever, will be covered by the insurance company (-ies). It is a rather slack formulation as it actually means the insurance policy (-ies) taken out by insured parties.
I have not consulted the official text referred to in the same sentence. That would be the first place to look to check for meaning. In any event , this is about being covered. in the context of construction, it is usually 'indemnity' insurance cover.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2016-11-19 17:24:22 GMT)
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Having consulted article 1792 of the French 'Code civil', one runs into another slightly inaccurate formulation in the source text. When one reads "articles 1792 et suivants du Code civil des travaux de réparation", the impression is that this is a reference to a civil code specific to repair work. It is in fact referring to part of the civil code which governs liability between various parties. Yes, this is about liability, warranties and indemnity. That is all correct. However, to respect the tone of the original, quirks an' all, the terms liability, warranty or indemnity are not used. The sources text uses a far more generic term, in fact quite a familiar term for insurance generally. I think you need to go along with that generality in your translation.
I have not consulted the official text referred to in the same sentence. That would be the first place to look to check for meaning. In any event , this is about being covered. in the context of construction, it is usually 'indemnity' insurance cover.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2016-11-19 17:24:22 GMT)
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Having consulted article 1792 of the French 'Code civil', one runs into another slightly inaccurate formulation in the source text. When one reads "articles 1792 et suivants du Code civil des travaux de réparation", the impression is that this is a reference to a civil code specific to repair work. It is in fact referring to part of the civil code which governs liability between various parties. Yes, this is about liability, warranties and indemnity. That is all correct. However, to respect the tone of the original, quirks an' all, the terms liability, warranty or indemnity are not used. The sources text uses a far more generic term, in fact quite a familiar term for insurance generally. I think you need to go along with that generality in your translation.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
writeaway
: la prise en charge par les *****assurances* makes it rather obvious/clear, I'd have thought
50 mins
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| agree |
ph-b (X)
: I feel "stés d'ass./contrats d'ass." would have been the proper way of drafting it if "ins. co." had been the intended meaning (lots of examples in code civil/code des assurances), but you could be right (see note added in my answer below).
1 hr
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Quite. The source text is not drafted in a helpful way. One cld even be forgiven for thinking that there is a Code civil des travaux de réparation. A generic term, rather than a specific one matches the register of the French original.
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
2 hrs
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| agree |
Chakib Roula
3 hrs
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| agree |
Tony M
: I don't think it's quite so much a matter of the companies, as the insurance cover in general — we'd probably use it as the non-countable 'insurance' here in EN, whence perhaps the temptation to add a countable complement.
5 hrs
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks so much for your help, Nikki !"
38 mins
French term (edited):
assurances (here)
guarantees (your second choice)
Article 1792 of the code civil
Tout constructeur d'un ouvrage est responsable de plein droit, envers le maître ou l'acquéreur de l'ouvrage, des dommages, même résultant d'un vice du sol, qui compromettent la solidité de l'ouvrage ou qui, l'affectant dans l'un de ses éléments constitutifs ou l'un de ses éléments d'équipement, le rendent impropre à sa destination.
Une telle responsabilité n'a point lieu si le constructeur prouve que les dommages proviennent d'une cause étrangère.
(https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?idArticl...
I can’t see any insurance policy mentioned here; the article just says that the builder is liable (to X), which of course implies first and foremost that he ‘promises’/'guarantees to' to indemnify (X) (and that, of course, he’d better be insured in that respect but the article doesn’t actually say so).
In fact, assurances (in the plural) as employed in your text looks very much like this definition (emphasis mine): C. P. méton., le plus souvent au plur. Affirmation, protestation, promesse propres à garantir quelque chose
(http://atilf.atilf.fr/dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/visusel.exe?86;... )
Your second choice ("guarantees") looks right to me.
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Note added at 1 hr (2016-11-19 14:38:13 GMT)
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I have to say that prise en charge makes me wonder… This is indeed usually followed by “insurance cover/contract/policy/company, etc.”, in which case your first choice - and Nikki’s answer - would be right.
However, as a native speaker and insurance translator, I think it is the first time that I’ve seen insurance companies referred to as les assurances in a contract(?) or legal text. It is common enough in non-specialist texts or everyday conversations, but I am surprised to see it used like that in a text written by (I suppose) lawyers.
I think both your choices are possible here. Any chance you could ask your client?
Tout constructeur d'un ouvrage est responsable de plein droit, envers le maître ou l'acquéreur de l'ouvrage, des dommages, même résultant d'un vice du sol, qui compromettent la solidité de l'ouvrage ou qui, l'affectant dans l'un de ses éléments constitutifs ou l'un de ses éléments d'équipement, le rendent impropre à sa destination.
Une telle responsabilité n'a point lieu si le constructeur prouve que les dommages proviennent d'une cause étrangère.
(https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?idArticl...
I can’t see any insurance policy mentioned here; the article just says that the builder is liable (to X), which of course implies first and foremost that he ‘promises’/'guarantees to' to indemnify (X) (and that, of course, he’d better be insured in that respect but the article doesn’t actually say so).
In fact, assurances (in the plural) as employed in your text looks very much like this definition (emphasis mine): C. P. méton., le plus souvent au plur. Affirmation, protestation, promesse propres à garantir quelque chose
(http://atilf.atilf.fr/dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/visusel.exe?86;... )
Your second choice ("guarantees") looks right to me.
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Note added at 1 hr (2016-11-19 14:38:13 GMT)
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I have to say that prise en charge makes me wonder… This is indeed usually followed by “insurance cover/contract/policy/company, etc.”, in which case your first choice - and Nikki’s answer - would be right.
However, as a native speaker and insurance translator, I think it is the first time that I’ve seen insurance companies referred to as les assurances in a contract(?) or legal text. It is common enough in non-specialist texts or everyday conversations, but I am surprised to see it used like that in a text written by (I suppose) lawyers.
I think both your choices are possible here. Any chance you could ask your client?
Note from asker:
| Thanks very much for your help, PH ! |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
B D Finch
: Read on: builders are under a legal obligation to provide insurance-backed warranties.//See note added to my answer. This is my specialist field, having previously worked managing housing development projects.
1 hr
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Sorry, can't find it. Source?/Fine, thanks + already agreed to 'warranties'. I did hint at the need for insurance in my answer but let's agree ST doesn't explicitly mention insurance (subject to my note added at 1 hr).
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| neutral |
writeaway
: fyi: Larousse: les assurances insurance companies/I realised immediately afterwards that sous is wrong. but I think general dictionaries can be useful to help confirm or reject a possible translation.
1 hr
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Thank you, but please refer to my note re les assurances + I don't use general dictionaries for legal translations. Also, in your comment to B D Finch, sous les assurances doesn't exist in French, so can't use this./That's your choice. :-)
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| neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: I think all of your remarks are pertinent. I have no pb with actually enhancing a text in its EN version. The difficulty is repsecting the tone of the original and the source text is couched in unusual terms, which is where I think we both agree!
4 hrs
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+1
34 mins
French term (edited):
assurances (here)
warranties
This is about liability being accepted (by the insurers) under the statutory warranties on building works: "... assurances relatives aux articles 1792 et suivants du Code civil des travaux de réparation".
So I would translate "assurances" here as "warranties", not as meaning the insurance companies themselves, even though they are the insurance providers.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2016-11-19 14:59:21 GMT)
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https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assurance_décennale_(France)
"L'obligation d'assurances> procède en réalité des articles L241 et suivants du Code des assurances ; elle ne s'applique qu'aux ouvrages de bâtiment (voir détail).
"L'assurance dommage ouvrage est obligatoire pour le maître de l'ouvrage (particulier, promoteur ou syndicat de copropriétaires)1;
"L'assurance de responsabilité décennale est obligatoire pour le maître d'œuvre.
"Pour le bâtiment, la jurisprudence a établi que l'assurance doit être souscrite selon les principes dont s'inspirent les articles 1792 et suivants du Code civil. En d'autres termes, l'assureur ne pourra pas prévoir de clause(s) qui limitent l'indemnité sous risque d'être débouté devant le juge."
www.nhbc.co.uk › Warranties and cover
"We are the leading warranty and insurance provider for new and newly-converted homes in the UK. Buildmark is the name of our 10 year warranty and ..."
www.new-homes.co.uk/why-buy-new/customer-protection/
Buying a new build home gives purchasers a level of protection that they simply would not get when buying a second-hand home. A 10-year warranty and a ...
BTW, I spent 10 years developing new social housing projects with Buildmark, or equivalent, warranties.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2016-11-19 15:28:39 GMT)
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See also: Code des Assurances Art. L. 242-1
So I would translate "assurances" here as "warranties", not as meaning the insurance companies themselves, even though they are the insurance providers.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2016-11-19 14:59:21 GMT)
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https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assurance_décennale_(France)
"L'obligation d'assurances> procède en réalité des articles L241 et suivants du Code des assurances ; elle ne s'applique qu'aux ouvrages de bâtiment (voir détail).
"L'assurance dommage ouvrage est obligatoire pour le maître de l'ouvrage (particulier, promoteur ou syndicat de copropriétaires)1;
"L'assurance de responsabilité décennale est obligatoire pour le maître d'œuvre.
"Pour le bâtiment, la jurisprudence a établi que l'assurance doit être souscrite selon les principes dont s'inspirent les articles 1792 et suivants du Code civil. En d'autres termes, l'assureur ne pourra pas prévoir de clause(s) qui limitent l'indemnité sous risque d'être débouté devant le juge."
www.nhbc.co.uk › Warranties and cover
"We are the leading warranty and insurance provider for new and newly-converted homes in the UK. Buildmark is the name of our 10 year warranty and ..."
www.new-homes.co.uk/why-buy-new/customer-protection/
Buying a new build home gives purchasers a level of protection that they simply would not get when buying a second-hand home. A 10-year warranty and a ...
BTW, I spent 10 years developing new social housing projects with Buildmark, or equivalent, warranties.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2016-11-19 15:28:39 GMT)
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See also: Code des Assurances Art. L. 242-1
Reference:
Note from asker:
| Thanks again for your help BD ! |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
ph-b (X)
: with 'warranties'. @ writeaway: my feeling as a native speaker is that "stés d'ass./contrats d'ass." would have been the proper way of drafting it if it had been the intended meaning - lots of examples in code civil/code des assurances
4 mins
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Thanks
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| neutral |
writeaway
: it says par les assurance, pas sous les assurances and anyway, garantie is usually the French word for warranty, non? /I don't agree with you at all here I'm afraid.
29 mins
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Non ! Try looking up "assurance décennale" and the UK's similar 10-year warranty on new-build. Also, check out my link above to the French legislation.
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| neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: Same comment as for ph-b. Pertinent and no doubt accurate remarks. Hwvr, remaining faithful to the tone of the original, quirks and all, I think we have to remain generic.
4 hrs
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Discussion
It just keeps getting sloppier and sloppier. A small extract :
"...le Maître d’Ouvrage Délégué s’engage à :
- à fournir...( à à fournir ??)
- informer le Maître d'Ouvrage Délégué de toute événement... (il s'engage à s'auto-informer ??)
- fera toutes diligences (s'engage à fera... ??)"
This is the worst drafting I have seen in a VERY long time...
Reference to a text that does not exist is in fact a major error on the face of your original. I think ity might be a good idea to find some (tactful) way to draw that to the attention of the client.