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Jan 4, 2017 16:42
7 yrs ago
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English term

must have a completed hire

English to French Other Human Resources
Bonjour à tous,

Il s'agit ici de la traduction d'un logiciel RH en Suède/Norvège :


"In this process you can add an additional job for an existing worker.
The worker must have a completed hire in order to complete this process.
An open job requisition is a prerequisite for completing this process."

"Le collaborateur doit avoir terminé son processus (sa procédure pour éviter la répétition ?) d'embauche pour finaliser ce processus."

Comment comprenez-vous ce "must have a completed hire" ?

Merci

Discussion

Tony M Jan 10, 2017:
@ Daryo Thanks a lot, I'm so glad at least one other person understands the point I was seeking to make!
Daryo Jan 10, 2017:
what the ST says is "the hiring procedure must be completed" without entering into details about who exactly and at what stage is supposed to do what.

By using the passive form "la procédure d'embauche doit avoir été complétée" you say exactly the same and in fact you keep the emphasis where it is in the ST "completed hiring procedure" as a condition to start adding to the job description of the employee.

As Tony rightly pointed it out the ST doesn't say "The worker must have completed a hire" which would sound more like "normal language" but uses a language that looks more like the jargon of software developers where "have" indicate the property of an object manipulated by the software.
Tony M Jan 9, 2017:
@ Sandra I beg to disagree! There is no question here of "unecessary complication", nor of "mental gymnastics" — it is simply a case of properly understanding the full significance of the nuances of the English language used here and being sensitive to the way things are likely to be expressed in this sort of context.

First and foremost, let us note that we are dealing here not just with HR pure and simple — we are actually talking at a different level, about software designed for use in HR — this changes things quite a bit.

For a start, we are not referring here to 'the worker' as an actual person, but rather, as an object being manipulated within the software. As such, 'having a completed hire' is an attribute of that computer object; do please note the subtle difference between "The worker must have a completed hire" (= the object 'worker' must possess the attribute 'has a completed hire') and "The worker must have completed a hire" (= active verb 'to have completed', the worker = person must have done something).

Possibly some people might find this subtlety diffiicult to grasp... but these are just the sort of nuances we as translators absolutely must embrace.
Premium✍️ Jan 9, 2017:
The WORKER must have a completed hire" L'original met bien l'accent sur WORKER</B>. Donc l'emphase doit être mise sur le candidat/collaborateur/travailleur. Donc, vu à partir de cette perspective, c'est lui qui doit avoir complété toutes les étapes d'embauche. Il est évident, comme tout le monde le sait, que l'entreprise et sa division de ressources humaines ont leur part (sinon la plus grosse part) à remplir, mais l'original précise et met spécifiquement l'accent sur le WORKER. Pas besoin de s'éterniser, de faire des gymnastiques mentales ni de compliquer inutilement.
Willa95 (asker) Jan 6, 2017:
Merci Tony Je vais donc m'en tenir à la première suggestion, vous avez raison :)
Tony M Jan 6, 2017:
@ Asker Your second suggestion of ""Afin de finaliser ce processus, le collaborateur devra compléter toute la procédure d'embauche"" is risky, inasmuch as the whole point here is that the actual employee themselves only completes part of the process, most of it is in fact completed by the employer. Hence why EN use 'a hire' to succinctly refer to the entire engagement process by all parties.
Willa95 (asker) Jan 6, 2017:
@Tout le monde Après questions posées au client, celui-ci m'a confirmé que cela voulait bien dire "The hire process must have been completed for the employee" comme l'a suggéré Tony. "La procédure d’embauche du collaborateur doit être complétée afin de finaliser ce processus."/"Afin de finaliser ce processus, le collaborateur devra compléter toute la procédure d'embauche". Merci à tous :)
Willa95 (asker) Jan 6, 2017:
Merci MultiPro
Willa95 (asker) Jan 5, 2017:
Effectivement Daryo, il me semble que vous avez raison. D'où sans doute le manque de consignes ici...
Concernant les répétitions, je vous rassure je choisis toujours le terme approprié, même s'il se répète :)
Daryo Jan 5, 2017:
this was possibly translated from Swedish or Norwegian, and just to make it more fun, it sounds more like one software developer talking to another one, not to a "normal" end-user!

BTW, this idea/"rule" of avoiding repetitions is fine in itself, but if it starts leading you to avoid using the right/exact term when it does matter to use the exact term, then I would simply ditch/ignore this "rule" - getting the correct/exact meaning is far more important that having a "nice sounding" text!
Willa95 (asker) Jan 5, 2017:
Merci Daryo pour votre proposition.
Willa95 (asker) Jan 4, 2017:
@Tony Cela transmet donc bien "processus d'embauche" n'est-ce pas ?
Tony M Jan 4, 2017:
a hire Used in this way, 'a hire' generally means 'the process of being hired' — it is NOT a normal way of saying 'a job' or 'a misison'.
Willa95 (asker) Jan 4, 2017:
Merci Cathy Je ne suis pas sûre qu'il s'agisse d'un travail temporaire ici (en tout cas cela n'est pas mentionné). Comme le dit Tony, je vois plutôt cela comme la fin d'une période d'essai concluante par ex.
Willa95 (asker) Jan 4, 2017:
Merci Tony C'est sans doute moins risqué dans tous les cas :).
Tony M Jan 4, 2017:
@ Asker Although I'm ill-placed to judge, that sounds better to me, yes!
Willa95 (asker) Jan 4, 2017:
Je comprends où vous voulez en venir. Peut-être dans ce sens par rapport au logiciel : "Le processus d’embauche du collaborateur doit être terminé afin de finaliser ce processus."
Tony M Jan 4, 2017:
@ Asker I'm not quite sure; I think the idea is that 'the hire process must have been completed for the employee' — it's a sort of 'hidden passive'; think of 'the employee' as a computer record, and it must possess an attribute 'hiring process completed'. I'm not quite sure how it would be best to formulate that in FR, but your proposal sounds odd to my non-native ears ;-)
Willa95 (asker) Jan 4, 2017:
Merci Tony Vous rejoignez donc ma proposition "Le collaborateur doit avoir terminé son processus d'embauche " ? C'est bien cela ?
Tony M Jan 4, 2017:
My understanding... (in the absence of further context) would be that for the software to be able to 'add' a job, one of the prerequisites must be that the staff member does already have an existing job that has been com:pleted.
It sounds silly, I know, but I guess the 'add to existing' function operates differently from a 'new employee' function.
I would expect 'completed hire' to mean that the process of hiring (engaging) this employee has been completed: e.g. perhaps contract signed, trial period completed successfully, etc.

Proposed translations

-1
1 hr

doit avoir terminé un contrat

J'imagine qu'il s'agit de travail temporaire et que le collaborateur en question est destiné à effectuer plusieurs contrats. Il doit en avoir terminé au moins un pour qu'il soit possible d'en ajouter un supplémentaire, ce qui semble logique.

Le terme "contrat" n'est peut-être pas le plus utilisé ici, j'ai un doute, mais l'idée générale est là.
Peer comment(s):

disagree Daryo : ST: "... for an existing worker" // if the "contract of employment" has just ended, how could it be an "existing" worker??
18 hrs
I was thinking of temporary work, so it made sense, but it seems this is not temporary work, as indicated the asker.
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20 hrs
English term (edited): The worker must have a completed hire

la procédure d'embauche doit avoir été complétée / menée à bout

The worker must have a completed hire = literally: the variable "worker XYZ" must have the attribute "hiring process" set to "completed", before you can start meddling with the attribute "jobs/allocated tasks"

when someone is offered employment (be it permanent or temporary), often the person starts working even before all the various formalities and/or checks are completed; that "transitional period" can be just few days or in some cases far longer.

"In this process you can add an additional job for an existing worker.
The worker must have a completed hire in order to complete this process.
An open job requisition is a prerequisite for completing this process.\"
=>
An open job requisition is a prerequisite for completing this process.
= there must must an internal [to the company] demand for a "job" that I would more understand as "tâches à accomplir" rather than "poste de travail"

if you want to give this required "job/tâches à accomplir" to someone already employed (in effect change the "job description" on that employee), you can do it only if the "hiring process" for that employee has been completed!

IOW this computerised HR system won't allow you to start changing the "job description" by adding new tasks/responsibilities to someone who just started and his/her HR record is still incomplete.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Premium✍️ : La procédure d'embauche n'est pas unilatérale. Le candidat ne peut pas en être exclu.//FAUX: ST précise "The WORKER must have a completed hire"...
3 days 5 hrs
certainly true, but the ST is about the whole of the hiring process being completed, whether some steps are to be done by the employee, the HR department or whoever else ... // the worker "must have" is NOT the same as the worker "must do it"
disagree GILLES MEUNIER : is supposed to mean what exactly?
4 days
if you need an explanation for "une procédure ... menée à bout" that's just slightly / a little bit / possibly / marginally worrying ... il y a de quoi s'inquiéter juste un chouïa?
agree Tony M : You have exactly addressed the point I have been labouring so hard to explain.
7 days
Thanks!
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-1
8 days

doit achever son processus d'embauche

Pour alléger le paragraphe et éviter des tournures maladroites.
>>Afin de finaliser ce processus, XXX doit compléter/achever/satisfaire (entièrement) son processus d'embauche.<<

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Note added at 8 days (2017-01-12 18:28:01 GMT)
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P.S. Oui, j'ai supprimé ma réponse précédente parce qu'on a caché ma réponse au "peer comment" initial. Je voudrais ajouter que lorsque j'offre mon aide bénévole ici, ce sont mes propres idées, mes propositions e tmes réflexions personnelles que j'exprime. Je ne consulte pas de francophones ou d'autres locuteurs natifs avant de participer. Je n'ai pas malheureusment le temps ni le loisir de passer mes journées entières à discourir et à m'éterniser dans des discussions KudoZ. Je réfléchis très sérieusement avant de faire des suggestions.
Je pense qu'il ne faut pas aller au-delà du texte original ni compliquer inutilement.
Bonne soirée. ;))
Note from asker:
Merci pour votre réponse MultiPro. Je vois que vous avez supprimé votre réponse précédente. Je me permets à ce sujet de ne pas parler en mon nom lorsque vous dites que Tony m'intimide ou autre. Si j'ai un problème, je le lui dirai moi-même, comme il le sait déjà. Merci à vous et bonne soirée :)
Peer comment(s):

disagree Tony M : It's not just about what the staff member must do. This is computer software. Did you miss this bit (in FR): « la traduction d'un logiciel RH » ? The context provided is clear enough if one analyses it thoroughly.
5 mins
QUELLE EST VOTRE PROPOSITION?? VOIS PAS "COMPUTER SOFTWARE" DS EXTRAIT. PERSONNE N'A CONTEXTE INTGRL + NE SAIT PAS QUI FAIT QUOI. JE RETOURNE TRAVAILLER (9-5 PM). JE NE CONSULTE PAS DES FRANCOPHONES AVANT DE FAIRE MES PROPOSITIONS DS KUDOZ.
neutral Daryo : same as for your previous answer - by avoiding at any cost the passive form you are distorting the meaning and shifting the emphasis of the ST // is that because of some silly rule that "passive is never good/must be avoided like the plague"???
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
8 days
English term (edited): the worker must have a completed hire

il doit (impérativement) exister une procédure d'embauche conclue pour ce collaborateur

Whilst I'm quite prepared to bow to the inevitably superior knowledge of our FR native-speaking colleagues, I feel that this way of expressing it conveys the right notion with the correct emphasis, as might be found in a piece of software.

I don't think it would be taking too much of a liberty to add 'impérativement' here, as the 'must' here is clearly a mandatory requirement (for the software to work properly).

Using an impersonal construction avoids all the arguments about passive or active.

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Note added at 8 jours (2017-01-13 09:37:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

There is another important clue in the source text we perhaps shoudn't overlook — employers 'hire'; we can't really say that an employee 'completes a hire', since an employee 'is hired'.
Peer comment(s):

disagree Premium✍️ : 1Overtranslation 2Goes WELL beyond simple original sentence 3Pleonastic doit+impérativement 4Hiring process already exists 5Regardless of domain (IT or else), worker PLAYS part in it. HR DOESN'T do it all. 6Completed process=PRE-existing /STILL Pleonasm
2 days 14 hrs
Necessary to convey the full meaning, which otherwise seems to escape so many people. Pleaonasm or not, "doit impérativement" is VERY OFTEN found written by people more erudite than I. I did NOT say HR does it all, that is the beauty of this formulation.
agree Daryo : another way of saying it - regardless of whoever is trying to insist that translating is about preserving the word count ... I still have a thing for a thing called "meaning" ...
4 days
Thanks, Daryo! Yes, and I think "meaning" starts with "understanding".
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