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English to French translations [PRO] Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature / novel
English term or phrase:arthritic
Sentence : The tools bankrupted her, the mechanisms fussy and arthritic.
Contexte : une vieille dame fait des travaux de joaillerie (elle répare des montres, des médaillons, etc.) à domicile.
Pourrait-on dans cette phrase traduire arthritic par arthritique ou rhumatisant ? Les outils la ruinaient, les rouages étaient compliqués et arthritiques ??
Bien sûr, on comprend bien que ce sont ces travaux minutieux et répétitifs qui, au fil des années, ont fini par lui causer des douleurs articulaires mais en utilisant un seul mot, comme en anglais, cela fait-il sens à votre avis ?
Explanation: Mécanismes complexes et raide (raide pour faire comprendre qu'il faut enduire les mécanismes d'huile pour qu'ils fonctionnent normalement)
Micheler (Asker) nous informe sur ce que fait Pearl pour nous orienter sur le sens à donner à la phrase, mais c'est son interprétation. Dans les faits (le texte), nous n'avons pas encore cette information. Le personnage n'aborde la question des choses réparées que dans le paragraphe d'APRÈS.
Sans l'interprétation de Micheler - i.e. sans connaître le contenu du paragraphe SUIVANT - comment peut-on en arriver à dire que c'est ce dont parle Pearl?
Et que fait-on de la syntaxe? Je suis surprise que personne n'en parle: nothing about the ellipsis, nothing about the "BUT" that immediately follows and does "relate us back to the lady" and give some sense (IMO) to the ellipsis.
Je ne comprends pas pourquoi on s'arrête à "nobody use "mechanisms" that way". Ça ne va pas à l'encontre de la licence de l'écrivain? Je ne vois pas non plus pourquoi on ne pourrait s'en remettre à l'esprit de la lettre. Et tant qu'à parler mécanique et de ce que ça "entend", je vous laisse sur ceci:
Often Michael and I would see her… listening to the subtle shifts and subsidences within her, the mechanism of her body winding down… - Birchwood, John Banville
Tony is absolutely right. A native speaker of English wouldn't use the word "mechanisms" for a person's joints. The Asker has told us "elle répare des montres, des médaillons, etc" and the word "mechanism" would be appropriately used for a watch movement or anything clockwork. I think it unlikely, though not impossible, that the word "mechanism" is being used for the tools too. However, I think jeweller's and watchmaker's tools would be expensive because of the materials used and the precision required.
Incidentally, while I'm impressed that you have, apparently, taken the trouble to access the website, especially as though they say they are a free service they ask for credit card details: "Why do I need to enter my credit card details? This is to stop abuse of our free service and limit to one account per user" Sounds risky to me!
I'm afraid you will never persuade me that the EN as used here refers to her body; to start with, as I have been at pains to state, we simply don't use 'mechanisms' in that way — 'mechanics', yes; even you yourself say it would work with 'mécanique', but are you seriously suggesting 'mécanisme' could be used this way in FR?!
then again; the structure of the sentence is fairly clear: in the previous phrase, we are talking about her; then we talk about 'the tools, which... [did something]'; and then we talk about 'the mechanisms, which ...[were something]' — nothing in all that relates us back to the lady, as it would if, for example, it were to say "and her mechanisms were..." It is even conceivable, I now see, that 'meahcnisms' might be referring to "the mechanisms of the tools themselves" — of course, if these were ruinously expensive, they would probably be more than a simply screwdriver, possibly soemthing like a precision lathe, etc. — hence soemthing that can genuinely be said to incorporate some kind of 'mechanism'.
Je pense que "mechanisms" doit être pris dans le sens de "articulations". Ou, à la rigueur, dans le sens de "mécanique" - comme lorsqu'on dit, en français, en parlant d'une personne, qu'elle a "la mécanique usée" en voulant dire qu'elle n'est pas en (bonne) santé.
Let's take a look at the context:
Pearl dusted off her desk and her tools. Told herself that it made her eyes sore, it paid about as much as a kid’s paper round. Less probably. The tools bankrupted her, the mechanisms fussy and arthritic. BUT she took to rubbing her thumbs over her index fingers until the skin turned shiny. Wanting to do something with her hands.
Je ne vois pas de "mouvement d'horlogerie" (ou quelqu'autre dispositif) là-dedans. Et “bankrupted” au sens figure = dénué, dépourvu(e)
D’où: Les outils l’ont [laissée] dépourvue, les articulations capricieuses et arthritiques. Mais elle entreprit de se frotter les pouces contre les index jusqu'à ce que la peau brille. Voulant faire quelque chose de ses mains. ou Les outils l’ont décatie, la mécanique capricieuse et arthritique... ou encore, un mélange des deux, peu importe.
I have no idea about 'rouages' — but I'm damned sure one would hardly be likely to talk about 'mechanism' for the human body! One might talk, even with soem technical accuracy, of the 'mechanics' of the human body; but 'mechanisms', no, unless it were, say, in the sense of a 'disease mechansim' etc.
However, 'mechanism' is precisely the word we would use about an old timepiece, unless one was being technically pedantic and referring to the 'movement' — but then that would be liable to be confused with the person herself!
So in my ind, i am certain that it refers neither to the elderly lady, nor to the tools, but quite specifically to the items she is repairing — the jewellery has 'fussy' construction (the 'mechanisms' being e.g. the way things are assembled or the stones set) and the literal mechanisms of the watches or clocks are literally a bit stiff and not as free-moving as they should be.
Yes, lots of "medical" words apply figuratively. Je ne dirai certainement pas le contraire! Si c'est ce que tu as compris de mon commentaire, je vais tenter de préciser. Mais dans le contexte soumis, tu penses vraiment que "arthritic" est employé au sens figuré à l'égard des outils?
You seem to misunderstand my comment about "rouillé". I didn't say it couldn't be applied to a person's joints, but that it shouldn't be applied to clock or watch mechanisms. For the former, it's OK, because used figuratively; for the latter it's wrong, because used literally.
Strangely, I think that the Asker could have used any of the three answers not selected, but not the one that was selected.
Oh dear me yes, lots of "medical" words more literally applied to the human body are indeed applied figuratively to inanimate objects; like an 'asthmatic engine', or a "wheezy harmonium", etc. etc. 'arthritic' is certainly no exception to this...
Cela dit, en allant à la source (je rêve ou des questions ont déjà été posées sur ce roman?), le choix de "arthritic" - qui n'a pas l'air d'avoir un sens figuré dans la phrase en anglais après "bankrupted HER" - me laisse croire que Pearl parle d'elle, pas de ses outils, et certainement pas des objets qu'elle répare (ça vient après!). Finalement, il se pourrait qu'on n'ait pas à chercher bien loin: "Les outils l'avaient [ruinée][lessivée], les articulations capricieuses et arthritiques" - si ce n'est pas "les outils l'avaient laissée [en ruine][décatie], les articulations capricieuses et arthritiques."
Euh... En français, "rouillé" a aussi le sens figuré de "détérioré". Quand vos articulations sont rouillées, ce n'est pas par surdose de fer; même chose pour un appareil laissé longtemps inutilisé. Pour ce qui est de la "poésie" de "corroder", je vous invite à consulter le http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/corrodé.
I'm sure you are right about it being the most common term. However "arthritic mechanisms" isn't a common term. This is literature, not engineering or clock-making and so the term used has to fit the context and conjure up the sort of picture and associations that the term does in the source text.
I agree with both of you about "raide" being wrong. However, not "rouillés", because clock and watch mechanisms are non-ferrous, and not "corrodés" because that loses the poetic element of a word that could apply to the old lady too. "Perclus" seems like a good idea.
D'accord avec Drmanu là-dessus: "raides" ne va pas du tout. À tout prendre, j'utiliserais probablement "perclus", qui s'applique à la fois à la dame et aux mécanismes/engrenages/dispositifs. Même "ankylosés" serait encore préférable à "raides". Ou simplement "rouillés", "corrodés".
Merci pour toutes vos contributions. Je sais bien que ce sont les rouages qui sont raides. Ceci dit, la vieille dame souffre aussi de douleurs articulaires en raison des travaux compliqués et répétitifs sur lesquels elle passe de longues heures.
@Drmanu49, grippé in the mechanical sense is typically translated by "seized" or "seized up" in English, which means stopped. Here's a link to the Reverso French-to-French dictionary definition: "“bloqué par grippage, adherence excessive de deux pièces mécaniques mobiles qui frottent l’une contre l’autre, entraînant un blocage de l’ensemble." https://dictionary.reverso.net/french-definition/grippé
It's definitely the mechanisms that are arthritic (as well as fussy). If a machine is arthritic, it means it moves stiffly (it must be an articulated machine or one that's got moving parts).
I'd say it's definitely 'the "mechanisms" that are "arthritic", not the old lady!' However, depending upon your text, it is also possible that the author intended a secondary implication of a sympathetic magical link between the arthritic mechanisms and the elderly lady's joints possibly getting a bit arthritic.
I think you may be misunderstanding the EN source text here.
From the way it is worded, it seems as if it is the "mechanisms" that are "arthritic", not the old lady! This is a term often applied in a non-medical sense to machinery of one kind or another, just was we use expressions more normally associated with humans like 'wheezy' etc. I would understand it as meaning inclined to stick, not free-moving, etc. "Fussy" here probably means something along the lines of 'tricky to adjust correctly' etc.
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Drmanu49 France Local time: 03:53 Works in field Native speaker of: English, French