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警察局裡 | 在警察局裡

English translation: the inside of a police station | (inside/at/in) a police station

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Chinese term or phrase:警察局裡 | 在警察局裡
English translation:the inside of a police station | (inside/at/in) a police station
Entered by: Roddy Stegemann

13:32 Dec 12, 2006
Chinese to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - Linguistics / Grammatical Analysis
Chinese term or phrase: 警察局裡 | 在警察局裡
Sentence: 警察局裡有很多皮大衣，皮包，皮帶等東西，都是以前給賊人偷去再找回來的。

First Attempt: In the police station there are a large number of leather coats, bags, belts, and other stolen articles all of which have been recovered from thieves.

Question: Consider the following two phrases as they apply to the above sentence and comment on which of the two is more grammatically correct:

1) 警察局裡
2) 在警察局裡

Please explain your answer. As always examples of similar use in other sentences would be very helpful. I have made this PRO, because I am hoping for a thorough discussion.

Please see http://homepage.mac.com/moogoonghwa/tsongkit/contents.html#p... for further reference.

As always you are welcome to comment on other parts of the sentence, if you find them in error or would like to suggest an improvement.

Warning: In order to provide ProZ.com users with the best glossary entries possible, more than one question for the same entry will be asked from time to time. Please keep in mind when responding that you will be graded on your responses to ALL questions asked.
Roddy Stegemann
United States
Local time: 11:57
in/at the police station | in/inside the police station
Explanation:
>>> Consider the following two phrases as they apply to the above sentence and comment on which of the two is more grammatically correct

disclaimer: I'm going out on a limb here, since I'm not that well-versed in grammar as you know. ;-)

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

警察局里 is grammatically more correct in this instance.

Typically 在 is not used in front of a location when the location is the subjective phrase. Here are some examples:

商店里很挤 It's very crowded in the store
过节期间学校里没多少人 There aren't many people on school campus during the holidays
大街上人山人海 It's murder out there

It is actually wrong to have 在 in front of the location in the above examples. The same reasoning applies to your example of the
police station.

When is it appropriate to use 在 then? It is used between a verb and the location(Is that the adverbial phrase?). Here are some examples:

他被拘留在警察局里 He's detained at the police station
我住在学校宿舍里 I'm staying in the school dormitories

Here are 2 more examples:

在他的领导下他们赢了 They won under his leadership
在你心目中什么最重要? What is most important in your value system?

As you can see 在 is used at the beginning of a sentence. But its use is strictly limited to preceding an adverbial phrase that is not the main subject of the sentence.

I hope my amateurish analysis made sense to you :-)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day11 hrs (2006-12-14 01:11:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hamo, perhaps I didn't use the correct terminology of grammatical analysis. But you could identify the pattern of what I termed "subjective phrases":

The store is crowded.
The campus has very few students
The streets are packed
The police station has stolen goods

In situations like these one would typically not use 在 in front. Hope this clears things up a bit more.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days9 mins (2006-12-14 13:41:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Another two examples that might clarify things even more:

警察局里有我几位朋友
我在警察局里有几位朋友

Both of these sentences are used correctly. Although they both translate into the same thing in English -- "I have a few friends (working) in the police station", the structure of the Chinese sentences are different.

警察局里有我几位朋友
The basic structure of the 1st sentence is "The police station has a few of my friends"

我在警察局里有几位朋友
The basic structure for the 2nd sentence is "I have a few friends at the police station"

Although there is no grammatical difference in the English translation, there are discernable differences in the construction of the 2 Chinese sentences. After all, we are talking about the grammar of the Chinese language, aren't we?

IMO, using preconceived grammatical notions of one's native language to justify the grammatical structure of a sentence in a foreign language is a pitfall some people fall into.

Hamo, I'm certain you are not one of them :-)
Selected response from:

wherestip
United States
Local time: 13:57
Grading comment
Final Rendering: In the police station there are a large number of leather coats, bags, belts, and other stolen articles recovered from thieves.

Acknowledgment:

Lu Wang: You have confirmed my own doubt about the grammatical treatment of the phrases Ａ裡 and 在Ａ裡, but you did not provide sufficient argumentation, and you provided no examples to persuade me of your belief. In fact, in two postings on the same subject, wherestip, has nearly convinced that you, Zhongren, and I are wrong.

Wherestip: It is unlikely that I should award 8 points to what turns out to be the same question twice, but you have provided me with important confidence and new insight into the interpretation and use of the verb 有, as well as several useful new vocabulary words and expressions.

Thanks to Zhongren and Chinoise for their confirmatory support.

Discussion: Please see http://homepage.mac.com/moogoonghwa/tsongkit/part3/III-4-g.html#s3 for further discussion regarding the context of this question.

My very best from the land of no mountains surrounded by sea on many sides.

4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +1in the police station
Lu Wang
3 +1in/at the police station | in/inside the police station
wherestip


  

Answers


11 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
in the police station


Explanation:
the two are translated the same. the former acts as an adverb, like what you have done; the latter acts as a predicative, such as "the stolen articles are now in the police station".

Lu Wang
Local time: 02:57
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in ChineseChinese

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  zhongren (X)
12 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 day 10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
in/at the police station | in/inside the police station


Explanation:
>>> Consider the following two phrases as they apply to the above sentence and comment on which of the two is more grammatically correct

disclaimer: I'm going out on a limb here, since I'm not that well-versed in grammar as you know. ;-)

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

警察局里 is grammatically more correct in this instance.

Typically 在 is not used in front of a location when the location is the subjective phrase. Here are some examples:

商店里很挤 It's very crowded in the store
过节期间学校里没多少人 There aren't many people on school campus during the holidays
大街上人山人海 It's murder out there

It is actually wrong to have 在 in front of the location in the above examples. The same reasoning applies to your example of the
police station.

When is it appropriate to use 在 then? It is used between a verb and the location(Is that the adverbial phrase?). Here are some examples:

他被拘留在警察局里 He's detained at the police station
我住在学校宿舍里 I'm staying in the school dormitories

Here are 2 more examples:

在他的领导下他们赢了 They won under his leadership
在你心目中什么最重要? What is most important in your value system?

As you can see 在 is used at the beginning of a sentence. But its use is strictly limited to preceding an adverbial phrase that is not the main subject of the sentence.

I hope my amateurish analysis made sense to you :-)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day11 hrs (2006-12-14 01:11:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hamo, perhaps I didn't use the correct terminology of grammatical analysis. But you could identify the pattern of what I termed "subjective phrases":

The store is crowded.
The campus has very few students
The streets are packed
The police station has stolen goods

In situations like these one would typically not use 在 in front. Hope this clears things up a bit more.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days9 mins (2006-12-14 13:41:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Another two examples that might clarify things even more:

警察局里有我几位朋友
我在警察局里有几位朋友

Both of these sentences are used correctly. Although they both translate into the same thing in English -- "I have a few friends (working) in the police station", the structure of the Chinese sentences are different.

警察局里有我几位朋友
The basic structure of the 1st sentence is "The police station has a few of my friends"

我在警察局里有几位朋友
The basic structure for the 2nd sentence is "I have a few friends at the police station"

Although there is no grammatical difference in the English translation, there are discernable differences in the construction of the 2 Chinese sentences. After all, we are talking about the grammar of the Chinese language, aren't we?

IMO, using preconceived grammatical notions of one's native language to justify the grammatical structure of a sentence in a foreign language is a pitfall some people fall into.

Hamo, I'm certain you are not one of them :-)

wherestip
United States
Local time: 13:57
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in ChineseChinese
PRO pts in category: 16
Grading comment
Final Rendering: In the police station there are a large number of leather coats, bags, belts, and other stolen articles recovered from thieves.

Acknowledgment:

Lu Wang: You have confirmed my own doubt about the grammatical treatment of the phrases Ａ裡 and 在Ａ裡, but you did not provide sufficient argumentation, and you provided no examples to persuade me of your belief. In fact, in two postings on the same subject, wherestip, has nearly convinced that you, Zhongren, and I are wrong.

Wherestip: It is unlikely that I should award 8 points to what turns out to be the same question twice, but you have provided me with important confidence and new insight into the interpretation and use of the verb 有, as well as several useful new vocabulary words and expressions.

Thanks to Zhongren and Chinoise for their confirmatory support.

Discussion: Please see http://homepage.mac.com/moogoonghwa/tsongkit/part3/III-4-g.html#s3 for further discussion regarding the context of this question.

My very best from the land of no mountains surrounded by sea on many sides.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Chinoise
48 mins
  -> Thanks, Betty :-)
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)



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