Dec 13, 2008 14:56
15 yrs ago
2 viewers *
German term

Ur-Modelle

German to English Social Sciences Philosophy
I'm translating an article about Plato and other philosophers' concepts of truth and perception - this word occurs in a discussion of Plato's "allegory of the cave". Do we use the term "Ur-models" in English, or is there another generally accepted term? Or shall I paraphrase?

TIA!

"Er [Plato] entwickelte eine Ideenlehre, die u. a. mit dem bekannten Höhlengleichnis anknüpft, in der er sich Ideen als „Ur-Modelle“ bzw. Pläne oder „Backformen“ von Dingen und Handlungen vorstellt.

Discussion

Kim Metzger Dec 13, 2008:
Ideen als Ur-Modelle Der Beginn des Idealismus wird meist bei Platon festgemacht. In seiner Schrift Politeia entwickelt er, u.a. mit dem Höhlengleichnis und an die Mathematik anknüpfend, eine Ideenlehre, in der er sich Ideen als Ur-Modelle bzw. Pläne von Dingen und Handlungen vorstellt. Wer diese Ideen verwirklicht, der könne auch das Gemeinwesen regieren.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealismus_(Philosophie)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_forms

Proposed translations

+4
6 mins
Selected

archetype

Archetypes are used in theoretical debates of this kind.
Peer comment(s):

agree Jim Tucker (X) : Yes this would be one possiblility - "Ur-modelle" would in fact be a calque of "arche - types"; of course German has "der Archetyp", but I do not see an important distinction here. ("Ur" is also used in educated EN prose, so you could say "Ur-models")
23 mins
Thx Jim
agree Rebecca Garber
3 hrs
Thx Rebecca
agree Rob2031
10 hrs
Thx Rob
agree AC0
1 day 1 hr
Thx SANDROC
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
13 mins

eternal forms

I'm not an expert, but this might be the idea.

The intelligible world contains the eternal "Forms" (in Greek, idea ) of things; the visible world is the imperfect and changing manifestation in this world of these unchanging forms. For example, the "Form" or "Idea" of a horse is intelligible, abstract, and applies to all horses; this Form never changes, even though horses vary wildly among themselves—the Form of a horse would never change even if every horse in the world were to vanish. An individual horse is a physical, changing object that can easily cease to be a horse (if, for instance, it's dropped out of a fifty story building); the Form of a horse, or "horseness," never changes. As a physical object, a horse only makes sense in that it can be referred to the "Form" or "Idea" of horseness.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GREECE/PLATO.HTM
Peer comment(s):

neutral Jim Tucker (X) : Plato's forms are "Ideen" in German (cf. EN "Plato's theory of ideas"); within platonic thought "paradigm" would be most app. here, but I think author is trying to be more concrete.
1 hr
Platon ... eine Ideenlehre, in der er sich Ideen als Ur-Modelle bzw. Pläne von Dingen und Handlungen vorstellt. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealismus_(Philosophie) /This isn't a subject I've studied in depth. You could be right.
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+1
2 hrs

master forms (concepts)

a few alternatives to archetype for your context which looks at "Urmodell"as a baking form, a dish used to make (fit in/shape accordingly) all forms of the real world.
This form is transcendental, ideal, eternal...

or:

Ur-forms
pre-existing forms (concepts/ templates)
original forms (concet)
(preceding) transcendental forms
pre-forms (still on the transcendental level)


something not invented but always existent.
Like a pre-existing form or model/structure.

Even "master form" - might fit well for your context.

http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/timaeus.htm

That the supreme god of Plato’s cosmos should wear the mask of a manual worker is a triumph of the philosophical imagination over ingrained social prejudice. ... But this divine mechanic is not a drudge. He is an artist or, more precisely, what an artist would have to be in Plato’s conception of art:
not the inventor of new form, but the imposer of pre-existing form on as yet formless material.

http://www.opencroquet.org/index.php/TeaTime_Architecture
master form
Peer comment(s):

agree Helen Shiner : pre-existing concept would do it for me, though may not be form as such.
4 hrs
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Reference comments

7 hrs
Reference:

Plato's Theory of Forms

Plato’s Theory of Forms

The Theory of Forms (also known as the Theory of Ideas) was the centrepiece of Plato’s philosophy. It is essentially the belief that everything on Earth is an inferior copy of an original, supreme and heavenly master-copy. In effect, it amounts to a philosophical counterpart of the popular religious concept of the fallen paradise.

The classic example of the Theory of Forms is the concept of justice. On Earth, there is no single definition of justice, but rather a proliferation of systems which reflect differing human conceptions of what justice should be. Thus the typical Western idea of justice might differ considerably from that of the the Muslims. What then is ‘Justice’ with a capital ‘J’? Did it even exist? According to Socrates and Plato, Justice did exist, but not among the manifold copies of justice which had been invented by races of men here on Earth. Instead, true Justice was to be found in Heaven. It was literally an arche-type – a first type or original form. Hence the name given to this kind of Socratic and Platonic thinking – the Theory of Forms.

The Theory of Forms concept finds its best illustration in Socrates’ story of the Upper Earth which is told in one of Plato’s works, Phaedo. The setting is Socrates’ final hours in an Athenian jail cell, where he entertains a group of visitors which includes two prominent members of the Pythagorean community. As he faces death by drinking hemlock, Socrates shares his vision of what happens to man upon death. The soul, he says, is evidently immortal and experiences a variety of fates on the other side. Whilst the majority of souls go to dwell in the Underworld (either for a while or permanently), a privileged few are allowed to ascend to an upper realm which is called ‘the true Heaven, the true Light and the true Earth’. This Upper Earth, says Socrates, stands in stark contrast to the familiar Earth down here. Everything in it is brighter and purer. The trees are greener, the plants are more beautiful, and the stones and minerals are absolutely perfect. In contrast, the Earth down here is a spoiled and corroded world of ugliness and disease, where even our most precious stones are but crude fragments of the heavenly originals.

In this myth, the Upper Earth (Heaven) symbolises what Platonic scholars like to call ‘the world of Forms’. It literally is a world, albeit a perfect one – the prototype of the world that we know. Hence the idea that it was ‘the true Earth’ which contained the archetypes (the Forms) for everything that existed down here on our own imperfect Earth.

Elsewhere, Socrates and Plato portrayed the ‘world of Forms’ as an invisible sphere, which was the sole unchanging thing in an ever-changing Universe. They referred to it as ‘the realm of what is’ and ‘that which is’. It signified a perfect, invisible Heaven raised above an imperfect, visible Earth.

The Theory of Forms is also fundamental to the book Timaeus in which the Atlantis story is told.

Firstly, the Theory of Forms underlies Plato’s account of the creation of the Universe by the Demiourgos (literally ‘the craftsman’). As Plato put it: “It follows by unquestionable necessity that this Universe is an image of something.” That ‘something’, he said, was the Demiourgos himself, who had fashioned the visible Universe in his own likeness in order that it be perfect, eternal and ever-unchanging. The Demiourgos thus personified the ‘world of Forms’.

Secondly, the Theory of Forms provides the concept of the ideal state, which was the pretext for the telling of the story of Ancient Athens and Atlantis. The idea was that Ancient Athens should symbolise the ideal state acting nobly in war. Hence the story of the war between Athens and Atlantis, the latter symbolising a state that had fallen into decadent ways – the fate of all things that had fallen from the pure Heaven to the impure Earth. Athens, too, would fall into corrupt ways once it had been founded in the Earth.
http://www.eridu.co.uk/Author/atlantis/plato.html

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Note added at 7 hrs (2008-12-13 21:59:37 GMT)
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So eternal form, pre-existing form, even absolute form or original form might do in my view.
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