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Glossary entry

español term or phrase:

reconocer a Israel como un elemento de vecindad y de paz

inglés translation:

recognize Israel as integral to peace and regional cohesion

Added to glossary by Kate Major Patience
Feb 24, 2009 21:59
15 yrs ago
español term

reconocer a Israel como un elemento de vecindad y de paz

español al inglés Ciencias sociales Gobierno / Política Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Cooperation
Middle East: Israel and Gaza.

Representantes de la UE o del Consejo de Europa no tienen por qué hablar con Hamás hasta que acepte abandonar la violencia, respetar la legalidad internacional y reconocer a Israel como un elemento de vecindad y de paz.

From a speech made by Minister Moratinos.

Having some trouble expressing the short section above. It´s obviously delicate, and I am not sure I am getting it right. All suggestions welcome. International English. Thanks in advance.
Proposed translations (inglés)
3 +4 recognize Israel as integral to peace and regional cohesion
4 Recognize Israel as an element of <neighborliness/peaceful coexistence>
4 recognize Israel as a peaceful member of the community (neighborhood)
3 +1 recognise the right of Israel to live as a neighbour in peace
4 recognize Israel as a an element for neighbourliness and peace
4 recognize Israel as an element of good neighbourly relations and peace.
4 -1 recognize Israel as a neighbo(u)r and a peace element
4 -1 recognise Israel as (a) peaceful and neighbourly (element)
3 recognise Israel as a fundamental part of achieving peace and regional cohesion
5 -3 recognize and accept the state of Israel as a pacifist neighbor
Change log

Feb 24, 2009 22:01: Miguel Armentia changed "Language pair" from "inglés al español" to "español al inglés"

Discussion

Kate Major Patience (asker) Feb 26, 2009:
I know that the term covers a range of views, but it would not be neutral or appropriate in this case.
Yael Ramon Feb 25, 2009:
Just to clarify, i did join bcsantos in her offer in order to avoid this pacifist, but please note the fact that he uses "de paz" and not "en paz", meaning, he does refer to it as a peaceful element in some way (nothing to do with politics...:):)
Kate Major Patience (asker) Feb 25, 2009:
I am not going to get into a row with you, but I will say that "pacifist" would certainly not be the right term here, unless I wanted to get the sack for making a mistake in translating the word "paz" in this context as "pacifist". Not happening! :)
Yael Ramon Feb 25, 2009:
You are trying too hard to be more politically correct than the minister himself and avoid the context of his speech - it was in Israel, during a visit to Yad-Va-Shem-the holocaust memorial site-ambiguity is NOT the name of the game here.
Biling Services Feb 25, 2009:
Quite frankly, given that this is the opinion of a cabinet member on a sensitive issue, I would not rule out going directly to the source i.e. the Ministry must have a spokesperson, who can clarify EXACTLY what the Minister meant
Biling Services Feb 25, 2009:
This is a tough one, although not uncommon to diplomatic ´double-speak´, which sometimes becomes ´non-speak´. I understand the use of ´elemento´ as meaning Israel is an element or component or factor contributing to neighborliness and peaceful coexistence
patricia scott Feb 25, 2009:
te o elemento are the same thing - but doesn't integral in English mean that it is an essential part? My problem is with essential. Sería una parte integrante o un fundamento.
I'm sorry, since I can't come up with a better option anyway. Still...
David Ronder Feb 25, 2009:
But surely the only meaningful recognition of Israel by Hamas in this context would be recognition of it as a country?
patricia scott Feb 25, 2009:
You may be right - but: I think Moratinos avoids using country or nation because this has always been one of the issues with Hamas - they refuse to openly recognize Israel as a country and we're trying to be neutral here. Yes, fundamento o parte integran
David Ronder Feb 25, 2009:
Sorry that last word should be "complete"
David Ronder Feb 25, 2009:
de algo" and this initially led me to "integral" - necessary to make a whole plete.
David Ronder Feb 25, 2009:
You may well have a point, Patricia, but I do feel you might also be reading too much into it. Why would Moratinos especially need to avoid using country or nation? My RAE diccionario has the third meaning of elemento as "Fundamento...o parte integrante
patricia scott Feb 25, 2009:
makes me think more of "party" - (Israel being one of the two parties involved) or factor. It is a clever way of avoiding "country" or "nation" and tough to translate. Un elemento (not el elemento) avoids stressing that it is the only or essential issue.
patricia scott Feb 25, 2009:
This is very tricky indeed. Although David's option gets close, I don't think it reflects exactly what Moratinos says here - he does not say "elemento esencial para alcanzar la paz y cohesión en la región" or something to that effect - The word "elemento"
Kate Major Patience (asker) Feb 25, 2009:
Thank you for your input so far: not an easy one!
Kate Major Patience (asker) Feb 24, 2009:
Thanks, by the way, to whoever changed the language pair, and apologies for the confusion. I so rarely ask a question into Spanish that I clean forgot to change the pairs back. Apologies again. :)

Proposed translations

+4
46 minutos
Selected

recognize Israel as integral to peace and regional cohesion

Really tricky, Kate. Literal or near-literal doesn't do it for me here. You want the concepts and the standard English lexis of the conflict. If you don't like the above, I've also got an easy version: recognise Israel. (And write the rest of the phrase off as politician's blah blah blah.)
Note from asker:
After some time translating this stuff on a daily basis, sometimes it seems that diplomacy, so politically correct, has the potential to up either revealing hidden partiality or ending up being so bland... It can be frustrating, and confusing. In this case, I´m with you. The original is easy to misconstrue in English. The best thing here may well be to play the game and give a neutral answer that gets across the ambiguity that is often a characteristic of this kind of declaration. This is a strange little phrase. I think that your answer is the best option thus far, and you have picked up on exactly the kind of tone that it´s our duty to get across. Diplomacy isn´t always the same as doing the right thing, but our job is to translate the sense (in this diplomatic text, that, on balance, the states are neighbours and must relate to each other, like it or no), and the tone (neutral, diplomatic) not put words in their mouths. I hope that makes sense. At this time of night, it´s not so easy. :D
Peer comment(s):
neutral Yael Ramon : I think Kate is looking for exactly what you are trying to waive as blah blah - what can be heard behind the politically correct standards.
14 minutos
She is, Yael, and I tried to supply it. The blah blah blah bit was a suggested escape route out of a possible linguistic impasse - secondary to my answer and politically neutral.
agree James A. Walsh : I have to say David, this has a lot of clout, and is certainly the sort of language I would expect to read about the conflict, especially from Europe.
1 hora
Thanks, James
agree Wil Hardman (X) : I think your first solution captures the meaning nicely, I really like regional cohesion for 'vecinidad', great solution. I even plagurised it in one of my answers :)
1 hora
Thanks, Will - you are of course free to use it :)
agree Catherine Gilsenan : It is a tricky one, but I now think this is the best translation of all those offered.
12 horas
Thanks, Catherine
agree Sinead --
17 horas
Thanks, Sinead
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Wow. So much interesting input. Thanks so much everyone. I´ll leave it there, as we´ve had plenty of debate on this one already. But many thanks to you all. Have a great week. :)"
6 minutos

Recognize Israel as an element of <neighborliness/peaceful coexistence>

rgds

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 mins (2009-02-24 22:06:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

element or factor ...
Something went wrong...
10 minutos

recognize Israel as a peaceful member of the community (neighborhood)

en este caso, una operación conmutativa, suerte!
Something went wrong...
+1
13 minutos

recognise the right of Israel to live as a neighbour in peace

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Peer comment(s):
agree Catherine Gilsenan
34 minutos
Thanks!
agree Yael Ramon
42 minutos
Thanks!
agree James A. Walsh : I might be tempted to say 'exist' rather than 'live'. This would be my safe "EU" line, based on the fact that this is the line the EU virtually always takes in the situation.
1 hora
Thanks!
disagree Alex Lago : this misses the point of the phrase
1 hora
disagree Wil Hardman (X) : Hi, bcsantos, in this instance I don't think it is talking about Israel's right to peace but rather that it has a part to play in achieving peace.
1 hora
Something went wrong...
-1
13 minutos

recognize Israel as a neighbo(u)r and a peace element

recognize Israel as a neighbo(u)r and a peace element
Peer comment(s):
disagree James A. Walsh : Again, what is "a peace element"?? (Post comment) I haven't posted an answer because the answers are already here. I'm just using the KudoZ options to comment. That's what they're for, right?? I simply asked you to explain what "a peace element" is...
1 hora
Plz post ur suggestion/answer cz we need to learn from u Mr James A Walsh!!!!
Something went wrong...
-3
44 minutos

recognize and accept the state of Israel as a pacifist neighbor

you have to understand the origins of the minister's comment: Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right (internationaly recognized- so the minister) to survive. The minister therefore suggests, that it is not until this right is also respected by Hamas, mainly by giving up the violence methods, that the EU and CE should enter in negociation with Hamas.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Catherine Gilsenan : I don't think you could ever regard Israel as "pacifist".
2 minutos
well, here you are trying to drag me into a political discussion. i therefore agree to change my offer to "recognize and accept Israel's right to live as a neigbor in peace", which is closser to what bcsantos offered, and i therefore also agree with her.
disagree David Ronder : Since when was Israel pacifist? (I don't mean peace-minded.) Shalom, Ramon.
3 minutos
Dear David, see my answer to Catherine Gilsenan.
disagree James A. Walsh : I'm afraid I disagree too. You have not translated or even rendered the text here; you have in fact politicized your answer to be pro-Israeli. This is not a place for politics; it is a place for translators to help other translators out. Read the rules.
48 minutos
Something went wrong...
-1
45 minutos

recognise Israel as (a) peaceful and neighbourly (element)

-
Peer comment(s):
disagree James A. Walsh : Describing a State as an "element" doesn't really work for me...
56 minutos
Something went wrong...
1 hora

recognize Israel as a an element for neighbourliness and peace

another option
Peer comment(s):
neutral James A. Walsh : "neighbourliness" sounds very clumsy to me in English. Of course it is a word (I'm not an idiot), I would never use it in this context in a million years though! Of course others can use it to their hearts content, but, it doesn’t make for good reading.
8 minutos
it is an actual word, sorry you don't like it in this instance. Didn't mean to imply you are an idiot, sorry if you thought so, however just because you would not use a word doesn't mean other people can't use it
Something went wrong...
2 horas

recognise Israel as a fundamental part of achieving peace and regional cohesion

or 'recognise Israel as a fundamental part of achieving peaceful coexsitence.

A couple of options.

Not literal renderings but I think they capture the meaning.
Peer comment(s):
neutral James A. Walsh : Although I think this sounds brilliant Will, I also think it’s a rather over-extended rendition of the text, and also feel it's a blatant copy of David Ronder’s answer.
15 minutos
All fair points James, I admit there is slight over-translation for the sake of style, (perhaps fundamental should be removed) and it is a copy of David's answer, I have said as much, I also put another version below, but I like 'regional cohesion' better
Something went wrong...
12 horas

recognize Israel as an element of good neighbourly relations and peace.

This is what I remember from my Diplomacy 101.

President Jiang Reiterates Good-Neighborly Relations with Nepal
Jiang said consolidating and developing good-neighborly relations with Nepal
continuously is a set policy of China. China has always advocated that all ...
english.peopledaily.com.cn/ 200103/01/eng20010301_63796.html
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