Nina_PT Sep 6, 2011:

I'm sorry everyone! I really am right now of having written that first comment about the definition of 'butch'. It seems like I 'have set a house on fire'. I'll try to avoid that in the future. The problem is that I'm always obsessed with achieving the best possible translation... like most of you I'm sure!
Cheers all,
Nina.

R. Alex Jenkins Sep 6, 2011:

Exactly my point, Paula I don't want to read into this particular issue too deeply and that's why I choose to see it from a humoruous perspective, visualising some of the subtler uses of words such as "macho" or "butch". You sure know more about this subject than I do.

Paula Borges Sep 6, 2011:

"Super virile" attitude? But you cannot add a humoruous perspective where it originally doesn't exist just because you happen to find it humorous. He's clearly sending a private message to someone else on a famous dating website, and not looking for a "bofe" in the personals like you suggested.

R. Alex Jenkins Sep 6, 2011:

Hi Paula, and agree with Nick. The concept, to me, of openly looking for a 'bofe' in the personals column is rife with humour, so, from my point of view, as a heterosexual family man, it's probably none other than a childish, in-built defence mechanism for taking my mind away from the concept of "need a man" blues and "what a great set of pecs" on that.

It's an interesting topic because we can see female sympathy and understanding for the gay man's plight as far overweighing the rather narrow and shortsighted perspective of the he-male.

My question is, why Paula, do you take this so seriously? Gay men openly looking for male company. It's not exactly discreet. Normally straight people use phrases such as "likes wining and dining, reading books, listening to music, etc", you get my drift... not this comical "super virile" attitude.

Nick Taylor Sep 6, 2011:

Context It all depends on the context surely - given that "personals" should always be taken with a pinch of salt, as they are not so"personal" but "public" and exactly what the message being conveyed really means....maybe there is no need to paraphrase, and simply use "masculine" as the antonym of "effeminate"

Paula Borges Sep 6, 2011:

Nick is right... It's not like we're being competitive over Kudoz points, I'm not even endorsing my own answer at this point. I think "masculine" is the best answer, because it's neutral, somewhat flattering and it could not be controversial or seen as offensive in anyway. The question is just as serious as any other, and we can't add an humorous perspective where it doesn't exist. Just my opinion. Where's the humour? I don't see it. Additionally, it seems to me that the author is not a Portuguese speaker and probably used machine translation to write this message, which is all the more reason to believe the original word was "masculine", and also explains why the message sounds so odd.

R. Alex Jenkins Sep 6, 2011:

Heavy Thoughts What seemed like a bit of harmless fun for a change on the excessively competitive kudoz forum, has turned into a discussion on the use of gay/lesbian terminology.

The question has veered away from the light-hearted nature in which I originally perceived Michael's plea for help in looking for an alternative to "masculine", quite clearly stated in his original question.

There are good answers here such as "butch" and "macho", but then again I saw this question from a humorous, 'is your wife into photography', perspective.

As a further note, it's interesting to see the divide in opinion from a male/native English perspective, as opposed to a female/native Portuguese viewpoint.

Willing to discuss.

Paula Borges Sep 6, 2011:

Nina is right... In all of my years of "hagging" in gay clubs I've never heard that, except when used with irony. The most important thing to remember in my opinion is what the "author" originally meant, he chose to describe himself with a neutral word to simply say he's not very camp, I don't think he would go for a dubious word.... If it's causing this much comotion, then its meaning isn't clear enough. Understandably, not everyone is familiar with LBGT "slang" such as hags, queens, bears... But I'm positive the only ways gay men would use the word butch would be a-) towards females b-) as a derogatory/funny word to describe a kind of man who wear leather, have moustaches, lift weights... That's why all the references found were about someone else. It would be a dubious, dangerous word to use. A gay man wouldn't describe himself on a dating website like that, especially considering the serious, neutral word he originally chose. That's my opinion.

Nina_PT Sep 6, 2011:

Hum, just talked to a brazilian gay friend... His answer was: 'no way a brazilian gay would like to be called butch, makes no sense'.
As an explanation you just have to (re-)read the definition of 'butch' I posted (that was on the brazilian LBGT site).
I'd just say 'masculine'.
Nina.

Paula Borges Sep 6, 2011:

Well... Personally, whenever my gay friends in London use the word "butch" they're talking about lesbians, exclusively. I have never heard them use that word to describe a gay man who's "masculine", "manly" and/or "not camp", or even a "top". For that reason, I think it could be a bit confusing in this context and not convey the original meaning so clearly. I read the references below, but they're all about someone talking about someone else with a sense of humour or irony. I can't picture a man calling himself "butch" on a dating profile, especially because he opted for the word "masculina", I'd use something more neutral and serious like "manly" or even "masculine" - as I don't really see any humour or irony in his text. It's the asker's in the end choice so no need to argue.

airmailrpl Sep 6, 2011:

Gay men don't call themselves "butch" "Gay men don't call themselves "butch", trust me."
You obviously did not read the references I posted below.

R. Alex Jenkins Sep 6, 2011:

You're not quite correct, Paula. Robert - airmailrpl is right. "Butch" can be used equally for gay females who have elements of masculinity in their behavior, as gay males who have female tendencies. It's a way of expressing masculinity in a tongue in cheek, very subtle way, perhaps even sarcastic manner. In "THIS CONTEXT" it is equally appropriate for gay man and gay women - BOTH. And yes, Gay men would refer to other men as "butch". Not only that, but straight men refer to heterosexual men as "butch" too, perhaps in a cynical, derisive manner. Not only that, this word can be used across the board, even for pets! It's a very versatile word and is NOT focused solely on gay females.

Paula Borges Sep 6, 2011:

Airmailrpl Thanks for the clarification, but I know what absolutely means. I was agreeing with Nina_PT, below, I guess you misunderstood, so the comment was uncalled for. I agree with her because in THIS CONTEXT the word "butch" is used to describe females. Gay men don't call themselves "butch", trust me.

airmailrpl Sep 6, 2011:

butch => masculine Gratuitous Pet Photos. Again
www.boards.gingerbeer.co.uk/index.php?topic=60280.5;wap2 -
He is very butch though... ;D Post a picture of Hector! Inquiring minds want to know. :D. Bec: Quote from: Rosie-under-the-Mistletoe

skepticalcommunity.com • View topic - What kind of homo is Abdul?
www.skepticalcommunity.com › ... › Flame Wars
He is very butch and wears leather and rubber. He prances around, mincing and lisping. He is into authority; he likes to play "Priest

Is Michael Sheen as Aro in Twilight Gay? - Yahoo! Answers
www.answers.yahoo.com › ... › Entertainment & Music › Movies -
In the interview from Underworld he is very butch, then I saw the interview he did for New Moon. Well he was very ummmm un-butch. Not that ...

Subject: Offensive number plates removed from sale Posted by ...
www.honda-forums.com/pdf.php?th=18485&
there's a guy with 1M GAY on a bike and he is very butch :lol:

R. Alex Jenkins Sep 5, 2011:

Here we go again... ...the needless arguing over the meaning of a perfectly good word, "butch", for describing the masculine characteristic of a man, woman, gay man or gay woman. I'm a man and if someone calls me butch, I'll probably have a look at myself in the mirror and say ooo-err with a big smile on my face. Ridiculous.

airmailrpl Sep 5, 2011:

Absolutely "Absolutely" in English means you AGREE. It is the direct opposite of Portuguese

Paula Borges Sep 5, 2011:

Absolutely Butch is used to describe women, not men.

Nina_PT Sep 5, 2011:

butch butch – ( ingles ) usado para indicar mulher de aspecto masculino
Isso foi o que encontrei em 2 sites, 1 deles foi o indicado pela PB.

Paula Borges Sep 5, 2011:

This dictionary might help you, Michael http://www.somostodosiguais.com/spagina.php?id=89&id_pagina=...