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Glossary entry

Spanish term or phrase:

que consta en la comunicación del Juzgado

English translation:

indicated in the notification from the Court.

    The asker opted for community grading. The question was closed on 2013-02-23 22:54:07 based on peer agreement (or, if there were too few peer comments, asker preference.)
Feb 20, 2013 19:20
11 yrs ago
13 viewers *
Spanish term

que consta en la comunicación del Juzgado

Non-PRO Spanish to English Law/Patents Law (general) Marriage Certificate
Is there an accepted/universal translation for the following phrase: "que consta en la comunicación del Juzgado"? I can't find any.

Here is context:

EXPTE. Nº _________ Año___________
(Cítese la referencia que consta en la comunicación del Juzgado)

Here is my translation:

Case File Number _________ Year___________
(Certificate case file citation information for Court records)
Proposed translations (English)
4 +5 indicated in the notification from the Court.
4 found in the court's communication
4 which consists in the Court´s announcement
4 -1 Reference as per the Court´s records
Change log

Feb 20, 2013 23:23: philgoddard changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (2): Richard Hill, veronicaes

Non-PRO (3): Billh, AllegroTrans, philgoddard

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Discussion

Charles Davis Feb 25, 2013:
@ Jim Thanks very much for letting us know. It's very nice when askers take the trouble to report back.
Jim Morrissey (asker) Feb 25, 2013:
I know many of you will think this is incorrect still, and I don't want to beat a dead horse (too much) but I also thought some of you would be interested to see how our professor translated it: "Record No. _________ Year___________
(Enter the reference number indicated in the letter from the Court)"
Jim Morrissey (asker) Feb 21, 2013:
@charles yes I think we are repeating ourselves at this point. I will say one last thing: I do find Google searches helpful to weed out awkward wording in English. And in this case you don't agree but I would advise against ruling it out completely as it has helped me in the past. And your insight has been terrific and well thought out so thank you again!
Charles Davis Feb 21, 2013:
OK, Jim As I've already said, I wouldn't use the word "communication" myself. But in any case the number of Google hits is less important than accuracy. The fact that "court records" is an extremely common expression doesn't in itself make it the right translation. However, I think I've said more than enough already; I don't want to keep repeating myself.
Jim Morrissey (asker) Feb 21, 2013:
@Charles I still agree with Veronica. This is a Spanish document and it would appear that the whole file would be sent to the City Council. Also, I just can't wrap my head around "court's communication" in English. It's simply not said. If you do a google search and put "court's communication" in quotes then you find about 5,100 results. Most of them have to do with coincidence but are also related to tech and personnel. I don't have an issue with the translation itself and what you are saying makes very good sense but I still believe it's too literal for an English audience.
veronicaes Feb 21, 2013:
Charles Sorry but in my opinion, the documents quoted do evidence that the whole file (expediente) is sent to the Ayuntamiento and serves as the source of the Acta.
Charles Davis Feb 21, 2013:
Veronica OK, but none of that is evidence that the "comunicación" referred to on the form is the expediente, the whole court record. And indeed, none of it is evidence that the full court record is routinely sent to the municipal official certifying the marriage.

Indeed, if the person being asked to quote the reference number of the expediente had a copy of the whole expediente in front of him/her, it surely wouldn't say "la referencia que consta en la comunicación del Juzgado"; it would just say "la referencia". The reference number would be on the front of the file and there'd be no need to copy it from the "comunicación".
veronicaes Feb 21, 2013:
Charles From the official document:
"El expediente se inicia por un escrito que dirigen los contrayentes al
Encargado del Registro Civil y que deberá contener los datos mencionados en el artículo 240 RRC. Junto a él se presentarán los documentos probatorios señalados en el artículo 241 RRC (...). (page 235)

"Concluida la instrucción y comprobada la inexistencia de impedimentos
legales se dictará resolución en forma de auto autorizando el matrimonio." (page 237)

"En el caso de que los contrayentes, en el escrito inicial o durante la
tramitación del expediente, hubieran solicitado que la prestación del consentimiento se realice, por delegación del instructor, ante Juez, Alcalde o funcionario de otra población distinta, artículo 57, 2º CC, el expediente, una vez concluido por el instructor, se remitirá al órgano elegido para la celebración, el cual se limitará a autorizar el matrimonio y a extender la inscripción en el Registro Civil correspondiente (...)" (page 243)

From the internal Forum link:
"Hemos remitido los antecedentes a nuestro Ayuntamiento (...)"
Charles Davis Feb 21, 2013:
@ Veronica I've looked at the sources you've just cited, but I can't see anything in them to support your claim that "comunicación" means the court records. Can you say what in particular makes you think so?
veronicaes Feb 21, 2013:
Another one This instruction in the form between brackets is intended for the JEFE del AYUNTAMIENTO, he has to cite the records number, which is in front of him in the form of ANTECEDENTES o EXPEDIENTE, because he has received it from the JUZGADO DE PAZ. I think that the person registering the marriage indeed has to look at the court´s records in order to find the reference.
Richard Hill Feb 21, 2013:
I voted to change it back to PRO as the criteria is whether or not the question can be answered simply by using a dictionary and most dictionaries will give you "communication" for "comunicación", at least in the first entry.
veronicaes Feb 21, 2013:
Explanation and links to official sites The COMUNICACIÓN DEL JUZGADO mentioned in the original form, is not a letter or notification: as explained in the links below, it is the whole records of the marriage application (el expediente, o los antecedentes, as mentioned in the links below), which first has to be authorized by the Juzgado de Paz, and then sent with instructions to the Ayuntamiento in order for the marriage to be celebrated there.

Translating RECORDS for COMUNICACIÓN at first sight might appear to be wrong, but in this case the official communication in fact consistsis of sending the records.

Please see links: http://andaluciajunta.es/vgn/images/portal/cit_12354507/19/2...

http://justiciadepaz.mundoforo.com/image-vp2126.html
Richard Hill Feb 21, 2013:
Seconded I used to get riled up by some comments and got into a few discussions along the way but don't bother now as I'm more concerned about getting good answers to my questions and I quite enjoy participating with answers, and it's true there is "a lot of real expertise" here (at least two lawyers, and other academics and experts, on this question alone). Also, changing from PRO to non-PRO just means the answerer won't get points for the leader board rating.

BTW, the "1 down 3 to go" comment was mine not James', just meant in jest, in that I'd need 3 more agrees to equal Bill's answer, but as it happens I'd go with his answer over mine, so it could be argued that it should be a PRO question given that the literal (communication) translation doesn't work so well here.

Lastly, just to confirm, I think Charles' reasoning is sound when he says "As per the Court's records" implies that the person is expected to go and consult the court's records in order to find the reference, and this is not the case."
Charles Davis Feb 21, 2013:
@ Jim It would be a pity if you were discouraged from using the forum, and I'm very sorry that you have found it unwelcoming. Personally I don't think answerers should make comments that reflect on the competence of askers, as a matter of mere courtesy, and indeed the site rules say they shouldn't (3.7). I think the best thing to do is shrug it off, ignore it, if you can. I think all of us who use the site regularly get annoyed by peer comments sometimes, but there is a lot of real expertise available here. You have to develop a thick skin. I hope you will feel free to continue asking questions.

My comment was intended in a friendly spirit; I thought you'd made the wrong choice (for your own translation) and feared you might have done so for non-linguistic reasons. If you're sure, that's fine. I won't labour the point.

On PRO/non-PRO, there's no reason to take that amiss, because the PRO or non-PRO rating doesn't refer to your own professionalism but to the difficulty of the question. If you rate a question one way and the community disagrees, they vote. No problem, and no reflection on you.
Jim Morrissey (asker) Feb 21, 2013:
I appreciate your comments Charles. I am surprised by the immaturity and insecurity some of the people on Proz are displaying. I really don't want/have time for it. I suppose I should just stop asking questions. My intentions were good, but I really don't need the negativity. I am using veronicaes 's translation because I think it's the best and because I consulted a friend who's a lawyer and he disagrees with your reasoning. I would never rely on a poor translation/advice to spite myself. Billh may be abrasive and insecure, but I am not so foolish that I will not take good advice when it comes my way. I'm new here. I've been told to ask PRO because my questions had been more complicated. Now this got changed because it appears that this is too "simple". The community is not very welcoming so far. I'm disappointed.
Richard Hill Feb 21, 2013:
The asker has opted to leave it to the community to determine (through peer agreement) which answer will be awarded points.
Charles Davis Feb 20, 2013:
@ Jim Of course the decision is yours, but I must tell you that the translation you are proposing to use is unquestionably incorrect, and will remain so regardless of your professor's opinion. "La comunicación del Juzgado" can only refer to something communicated (obviously in writing) by the court to the person who is being asked to quote the reference: in short, a notification or notice ("communication" conveys the correct meaning, though it's not the word I would use). No doubt the same information is present in the court's records, but the "comunicación" cannot refer to them. "As per the Court's records" implies that the person is expected to go and consult the court's records in order to find the reference, and this is not the case.

May I just add that although you may have found Billh's somewhat abrasive remarks disagreeable, what matters is whether he's right, and in this case he is.

Proposed translations

+5
55 mins
Selected

indicated in the notification from the Court.

This is really school level Spanish.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-02-20 20:23:04 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Specify the reference indicated in the notification from the Court.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-02-20 20:25:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

There are many ways of saying this but it's very simple. Presumably instructions for filling in some form or reply or whatever.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-02-20 20:28:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

eg
Quote the reference shown the Court notification.
Indicate the reference contained in the Court notification.

Etc. etc.
Note from asker:
Thanks. Not sure I agree it's "school level Spanish", but I do appreciate your input. I agree that it has something do do with filing - but not sure that "notification from the court" makes a lot of sense in this context.
I respectfully disagree on both accounts. I am going to use "Reference as per the Court´s records" as per veronicaes 's suggestion. But again thank you. All of your responses have been helpful and appreciated.
Also, I'll have the professor's official translation next week and will post here if anyone is curious.
Basic is as basic does I guess philgoddard?
Peer comment(s):
agree Charles Davis : Notification from the court makes perfect sense and is the correct translation here. (I should say a correct translation.)
1 hr
Thanks CD. Wow, this question seems to have stirred up a hornet's nest of polemica. Maybe it's not so simple but it's my field and I would not pause a second when translating it. I didn't mean to be abrasive........
agree AllegroTrans : yes, and this is basic level Spanish
1 hr
Thanks AT
agree Sandro Tomasi : Or "Court's notification" or "notice from the Court."
1 hr
Thanks ST
agree philgoddard : It sounds like Jim is going with another, incorrect translation, but there we go...
3 hrs
Thanks PG
agree Richard Hill
18 hrs
Thanks Rich.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
3 mins

found in the court's communication

Please cite the reference found in the court's communication/official letter

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 mins (2013-02-20 19:35:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I see what you mean, but perhaps you have more context to suggest whether it's an official letter/notice/notification, etc. ?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 mins (2013-02-20 19:37:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The Inter-American Commission and its legal advisor in the above referenced case respectfully address the members of the permanent commission of the Inter-American Court concerning the Court's communication dated December 1, 1993.
http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/iachr/D/16-esp-31.html

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 mins (2013-02-20 19:38:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

We received a copy of the Court's communication dated October 14, 2008, requesting that the Florida Bar file an amicus curiae brief in the above case. http://fl.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.2...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 mins (2013-02-20 19:39:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"court's letter dated" "find a case" http://tiny.cc/nwktsw

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 26 mins (2013-02-20 19:47:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Hard to say even with the "original source"!

With this limited context, I'd still say someone received some form of "communication" from the court at some point, and they need to cite "case file number" found therein?
Note from asker:
Court's communication sounds odd to me. That is more or less how I originally translated it but found no English references that contained "court's communication".
Those links are helpful, but I'm not convinced Court's Communication is right - although it could just be a mental block! Here is the original source (it's a marriage certificate): http://www.buenastareas.com/mobile/ensayos/Acta-De-Matrimonio/1419792.html
Yes, I think you're right. It's a difficult translation and not a lot to go by. I think you're right tho - someone received some sort of communication at some point. Thank you!
Not sure what you mean James?
Something went wrong...
2 hrs

which consists in the Court´s announcement

that´s at least what the text says
Peer comment(s):
neutral Charles Davis : No, that would be "consta de".
10 mins
neutral AllegroTrans : "announcement" is not the meaning here
3 days 12 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
53 mins

Reference as per the Court´s records

This is another option.
I would translate and re-create the whole (Cítese la referencia que consta en la comunicación del Juzgado) for this one (Reference as per the Court´s records).

Good luck!


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 hrs (2013-02-21 14:20:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The COMUNICACIÓN DEL JUZGADO mentioned in the original form, is not a letter or notification: as explained in the links below, it is the whole records of the marriage application (el expediente, o los antecedentes, as mentioned in the links below), which first has to be authorized by the Juzgado de Paz, and then sent with instructions to the Ayuntamiento in order for the marriage to be celebrated there.

Translating RECORDS for COMUNICACIÓN at first sight might appear to be wrong, but in this case the official communication in fact consistsis of sending the records.

Please see links: http://andaluciajunta.es/vgn/images/portal/cit_12354507/19/2...

http://justiciadepaz.mundoforo.com/image-vp2126.html
Note from asker:
Thanks - I like this very much!!!
Yes, the other translations are, I believe, too literal veronicaes. My friend who is a lawyer said you would never say court's communication. It's court record. Communication would be something more associated with the tech side of things, at least in the US. Some very basic research shows that Communication may be a word sometimes used in British legalese. But not American.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Charles Davis : But the court's records are not the same thing as a "comunicación", are they?
1 hr
No they are not, but the information should be same one both in the Comunicación and in the Records. Mine is not a literal translation.
disagree philgoddard : Charles is right.
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
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