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détecteurs de type purgé
Mar 18, 2013 09:59
11 yrs ago
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French term

le sont

French to English Tech/Engineering Petroleum Eng/Sci base blending in oil refineries
Cette problématique du mélange de bases représentait un excellent exemple d’application de techniques de contrôle multi-variable non-linéaire puisque les lois d’additivité des propriétés le sont.
Proposed translations (English)
2 +1 change it around
4 +1 are
5 are analogue to that.
4 sont linéaires
3 as these laws constitute the same problem (ces lois le sont=cette problématique du mélange de bases)

Discussion

chris collister Mar 25, 2013:
The last word?? A "chance" of being correct really isn't good enough. I have run this text past two francophone experts, and both agree that, at best, it makes no sense, and at worst, that it is completely ambiguous. As for the laws of additivity, as in mathematics you would certainly expect them to be linear, but the additivity laws for pigments, for example (or so I'm told), are far from linear, so I fear only the author knows what he really means.
MatthewLaSon Mar 20, 2013:
Yes, please don't disregard Francis's answer as there is a very good chance that he is correct.
Francis Marche Mar 20, 2013:
@Ask the 4 google hits on "non-linear additive properties" all come from ONE SINGLE quotation (a patent by French engineers). That's it: one quotation in the entire world wide web. The odds that you selected the right answer here is as close to zero as it can be. I'm sorry for you. If you don't trust my understanding of French language, at least you could have crossed-checked my statement with what the hard science and the stats of www occurrences is telling you. Too bad. I won't waste any more time and energy on this Fr to Eng forum any more, to great relief of some, no doubt. Good luck to you all.
Francis Marche Mar 20, 2013:
Gentlemen, make your bets ! ghits on "linear additive properties" : 576
ghits on "non-linear additive properties" : 4

Ready to put 1000 quids down on these additive properties to be non-linear Tony, Chriss and Mark?
janisct (asker) Mar 19, 2013:
Chris I will cerrainly let you know if I receive any feedback, but from past experience, it's unlikely...
janisct (asker) Mar 19, 2013:
Yes Mark, I have made my feelings clear about the source text!!
Mark Nathan Mar 19, 2013:
Yes, it is only fair to Francis to find out - and also from a professional point of view you should say that the source text could be considered ambiguous!
chris collister Mar 19, 2013:
Do let us know whether the author intended to say that the addition laws are, or are not, linear....
janisct (asker) Mar 19, 2013:
Many thanks to all contributors - there were some pretty complicated arguments and I certainly gave you all something to chew on!
Francis Marche Mar 18, 2013:
@ Daryo There is nothing absurd in developing a process using the "linear additive properties of bases" in order to identify the characteristics of a set of non-linear variables. The former helps isolating/segregating the later through its very neutrality in the tests.

"pure grammatical reading" is fairly straightfoward here : the blending of bases provides a fine example of technology to control / monitor non linear multivariable sets IN SO FAR AS the additive function of base properties ARE (indeed) LINEAR ("le sont"). What's grammatically wrong here Mr Daryo ? In essence, that's what Nikky Scott-Despaignes is telling you in her answer.
chris collister Mar 18, 2013:
Whichever interpretation is correct (and I'm open to correction), this does rather emphasise the importance of clarity in technical writing. If the meaning is the opposite of that suggested by the translator(s), imagine the consequences for a nuclear safety manual, for example. My problem with Francis' and Nikki's interpretation is that the word "linear" appears nowhere, so implying that the addition laws are linear seems a bit weak.
Mark Nathan Mar 18, 2013:
Sorry Francis It was an attempt at a humorous example - but there was a point to it. I do not think "non" has the same negative value as "not", which I tried to illustrate with nonsensical/nonlinear.
Francis Marche Mar 18, 2013:
Please Mark ! Don't call what you fail to understand "non-sensical" please.. and read Nikki's answer if that can help you.
chris collister Mar 18, 2013:
Logic is fairly universal... Who would disagree? But the logic of linguistic rules is not, e.g. "tu me manques" apparently defies the "logic" of English linguistic rules in appearing to invert subject and object...
Mark Nathan Mar 18, 2013:
"Nonlinear" is not the same as "not linear" This is an excellent example of the application of nonsensical rules, because the rules proposed by Francis are (nonsensical).
Francis Marche Mar 18, 2013:
sorry: "...a negative applied on one adjective.." instead of "...a negative places on one adjective..."
Francis Marche Mar 18, 2013:
@Tony I agree with the necessity of not losing sight of the science under the metaphysics.
You write "But I find it really hard to believe that, even in FR, a quality expressed in an affirmative statement '[est] non-linéaire' can ne negated by another following positive affirmation."

I like the humour of "even in Fr". Logic is fairly universal, and is widely shared in the Western world and far beyond. You may have to force a change in your belief on this count: a negative places on one adjective in a positive statement making the main topic of a discussion or being the core point in it can and will be negated by another affirmative statement so long as it is verbal (le sont), in dozens of languages, old and new, including Fr.
chris collister Mar 18, 2013:
Thank you Mark, that was what I meant by "the logic of the sentence" (though as Tony points out, it is the application of multivariate non-linear control techniques, rather than controlling the variables per se)./ Or rather the application of the techniques of multivariate control - slightly different./
It is possible that, as a native speaker, Francis has unearthed some subtlety in French I was not aware of. If this is indeed the case, then it's an important point for discussion.
Mark Nathan Mar 18, 2013:
The problem with your interpretation Francis is that if the additivity laws of properties are linear (which, as Tony says, is doubtful) then surely this would NOT be an excellent example of the application of the techniques for controlling nonlinear multiple variables.
Tony M Mar 18, 2013:
@ Francis But surely, you are treating it as if it where 'ne sont pas linéaire', in which case the 'le sont' would oppose that in exactly the way you suggest.

But I find it really hard to believe that, even in FR, a quality expressed in an affirmative statement '[est] non-linéaire' can ne negated by another following positive affirmation.

Aside from all these linguisitic niceties, we perhaps should be wary of losing sight of the underlying science going on here; and I think you'll find that the laws governing the addition of properties in this sort of field are indeed non-linear — perhaps one of our scientific experts out there could clarify this point for us?
Francis Marche Mar 18, 2013:
An interesting discussion I we follow Tony and Mark Nathan we would have to translate "le sont" as "aren't neither", meaning a phrase in agreement with the non-linear quality of the multivariable set, thus what Tony terms "the positive statement" *le sont* would end-up in EN as a syntactic negative... However in Fr *le sont* is a positive utterance contrasting with a negative quality (FR non-linéaire), therefore the only way to translate it is to use the affirmative, to denote the linearity of the additive functions of the properties in question, hence *le sont* can be translated as "whilst [such properties and their additive functions] ARE LINEAR.

Note that to convey the meaning Tony, Chris and Nathan read in the Fr, the Fr sentence would have to end with a Fr "neither-word" such as "ne le sont pas non plus", which would denote the agreement between the non-linearity of the multi-variable set and that of the properties in reference.
Tony M Mar 18, 2013:
@ Francis I fear it is you who are misunderstanding what I wrote; in my interpretation, it is the control (= sg.) that is multi-variable and non-linear, NOT the techniques, which of course would require a plural agreement; so I am reading it as techniques involving the use of multi-variable non-linear control; that's the way I read the FR word order, where 'contrôle' is the main noun, qualified by the adjectives 'multi-variable' and 'non-linéaire'.
But even if we were to say that 'non-linéaire' qualified 'multi-variable' instead (though I confess I find it a little hard to see how), it doesn't really change the logic of my argument.
Francis Marche Mar 18, 2013:
@Tony you write: "multi-variable non-linear control techniques". Please take a second look at the Fr and see what is "non-linear" in it. They are not the techniques but the multiple variable set. "Non-linéaire" apply to "multi-variable" (singular). If it applied to "techniques" it would be "non-linéaireS" wouldn't it ? The best way, apparently, to measure/ control "a set of non-linear variable" is to segregate them from properties having a linear additivity function. Is this clearer now ?
Mark Nathan Mar 18, 2013:
Cartesian crisis I can't get my head around Francis's view at all.
Tony M Mar 18, 2013:
@ Chris That's the way I read it too! Please see the comments in my post below for my arguments in favour of our interpretation...

I have a very strong feeling that these 'laws' are indeed highly non-linear, hence why there would be a problem in the first place; it's a bit like baking: when you multiply the quantities in a recipe in order to make a bigger batch, you sometimes have to be careful, as the increase needs to be made in a non-linear fashion — for example, if the multiplied recipe would call for say 8 eggs, you might need to try first with 6 or 7...
Tony M Mar 18, 2013:
@ Francis OK, well, that's one way of reading it, but I think another is possible:
(I'm going to translate in pidgin-FR, just to illustrate the point of logic I'm trying to make)
"This problem of mixing bases was an excellent example of the application of multi-variable non-linear control techniques, since the laws governing the addition of properties are just that (i.e. non-linear)."

I find it quite hard to see how the positive statement « le sont » can be taken as negating the only two preceding qualifiers, which are either 'multi-variable' or 'non-linear'; I suppose it might equally well mean "... since... are (multi-variable)"
chris collister Mar 18, 2013:
An excellent example of a native speaker having a diametrically opposite view to non-natives. I must say, my reading here is that the problem of mixing is an excellent example of the application of ... non-linear techniques, since the laws governing the addition of properties are (ALSO) non-linear.
Am I wrong in this interpretation?
Francis Marche Mar 18, 2013:
Some explanation Once the "lois d'additivité des propriétés" are assumed to be, indeed, linear, it become possible to apply techniques to control/measure variables isolated as non-linear. "Puisque" (since) in the F sentence is to denote this so-called "logic". If the meaning were opposite (as feared by Tony), the F sentence would read CAR LES LOIS D'ADDITIVITE DES PROPRIETES NE LE SONT PAS.
Francis Marche Mar 18, 2013:
What "logic of the sentence", Tony ? Can you please develop ?

Proposed translations

+1
1 hr
Selected

change it around

Since the laws of addivity are non-linear, the issue of base blending represents an excellent example of the application....

NB I know nothing about these laws or base blending.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-03-18 11:56:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry,

"Since the laws of additivity of properties are non-linear...
Note from asker:
your answer made the most sense to me!
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M
10 mins
neutral Francis Marche : Sorry no. If French that would be "le sont aussi" or "le sont elles aussi", or "ne le sont pas non plus"// Of course they have opposite meaning! *[le=non-linéaire] sont aussi* is logically equivalent to *[le=linéaire] ne le sont pas non plus]*.
57 mins
Hang on! "le sont aussi" and "ne le sont pas non plus" have opposite meanings! So how can it be both of them? What exactly does "le" refer to in your opinion?
neutral Daryo : that's the meaning, but by reshuffling the sentence you risk changing what the stress is on - the fact that both are non-linear, or that this is a case of an excellent application of...
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+1
6 hrs

are

The "le" is emphatic, in reference, as I read it to "non-linéaire", and thus to be saying that the "lois d'additivité des propriétés" are "linéaires". There is room for disucssion though; as the intention may be to express the opposite.
The "le sont" does indeed mean "are". You may need to check with your client though as in English, this sentence would be best rephrased. leaving "are" on its own like that, well, it's not good from a stylistic point of view.

"Cette problématique du mélange de bases représentait un excellent exemple d’application de techniques de contrôle multi-variable non-linéaire puisque les lois d’additivité des propriétés le sont.
Peer comment(s):
agree Francis Marche : absolutely.
6 mins
Something went wrong...
11 mins

sont linéaires

as opposed to "non-linear variables".

read "puisque les lois d'additivité des propriétés, elles, sont linéaires"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 mins (2013-03-18 10:15:00 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

i.e. property addition laws are linear, while "base blending techniques" make it possible to control/measure several non-linear variables

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2013-03-18 17:09:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

There is nothing absurd in developing a process using the "linear additive properties of bases" in order to identify the characteristics of a set of non-linear variables. The former helps isolating/segregating the later through its very neutrality in the tests.

"pure grammatical reading" is fairly straightfoward here : the blending of bases provides a fine example of technology to control / monitor non linear multivariable sets IN SO FAR AS the additive function of base properties ARE (indeed) LINEAR ("le sont"). What's grammatically wrong here Mr Daryo ? In essence, that's what Nikky Scott-Despaignes is telling you in her answer.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : I think Asker was after a translation into EN; I'm also worried that it might mean the opposite, i.e. that the 'lois' are in fact NON-linear; could arguably make more sense here ;-) / I don't "need" anything — but this IS the FR > EN langauge pair...
5 mins
You need me to write "le sont" in EN, Tony ?
neutral chris collister : I'm with Tony here: I think the additivity laws in this case may be non-linear ! The logic of the sentence supports this conclusion, I think.
12 mins
What is the "logic of the sentence" Chris. I'm an avid learner. Please develop.
disagree Daryo : besides being contrary to a purely grammatical reading, it doesn't make sense - apply linearity to a non-linear phenomenon?
5 hrs
"it doesn't make sense" is a thin argument to support a disagreement
agree MatthewLaSon : I very much enjoy reading your suggestions, so I would hate to see you stop participating because of a few people not seeing things as you do. Your help is very much appreciated and, yes, invaluable. Good night. A very good chance you're right!
1 day 18 hrs
Something went wrong...
6 hrs

as these laws constitute the same problem (ces lois le sont=cette problématique du mélange de bases)

Hello,

I see it like this:

Les lois d'additivité des propriétés sont aussi, elles, cette problématique du mélange de bases

If it were referring to an example, you think the French would have written "en sont un", and not "le", which represents a definite noun or adjective. I think it might be referring to "cette problématique".


I hope this helps.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2013-03-18 20:32:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

NOTE: The idea is of "le" is the whole idea of "cette problématique du mélange de bases représentait un excellent exemple d’application de techniques de contrôle multi-variable non-linéaire"
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : Sadly, you contradict yourself, Matthew, as 'cette problématique' is feminine, and hence cannot possibly be the object to which 'le' (= masculine) refers! / With an ADJECTIVE, yes! But you're talking about a feminine NOUN ('problématique').
3 hrs
Hi Tony! No, it doesn't just extend to an adjective, but to a general idea as well (example: tu le savais...qu'il venait de Paris?). See note added in my answer. You could never have "la sont" in French here - not grammatically possible.
Something went wrong...
17 hrs

are analogue to that.

or
---are also like that (referring to an example)
Something went wrong...
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