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riprofilatura piano-altimetrica
anapesto in seconda sede
Nov 23, 2015 08:12
8 yrs ago
25 viewers *
Italian term

firma vs. sottoscrizione

Italian to English Law/Patents Law (general)
Hi, everybody. I need help with translating these two terms in a way that differentiates between them [to be honest, I didn't even know there was a difference and they weren't absolute synonims].

The context is a "Verbale di assunzione di informazioni" and the two terms appear in the following sentence(s):

Noto per altro che la firma in calce in a questi documenti e' differente da quella apposta sulla quietanza. Forse perche' trattasi ***di firma e non di sottoscrizione***.

Any additional information (either in English or in Italian) to help me understand the different concepts would be greatly appreciated, too.

Thanks.
Proposed translations (English)
3 signature/formal signature
4 +1 just a receipt and not applications
3 +1 signature vs autograph
4 signature vs. subscription
3 authoris/zed signature or stamp vs. personal sign-off underneath
3 signature vs. endorsement

Discussion

Andreea Zlotea (asker) Nov 28, 2015:
Thank you all for your help and input However, I will go with illegible/legible signature which, I think, best applies in my case. I should've mentioned (and maybe AncaPR will agree with me on this one) that the suspect is Romanian and, in Romania, people usually have very "artistic" and mostly illegible signatures, that they use all the time; in fact, this scrawl is often called "one's usual/normal signature", i.e. the "official" signature. This way of reasoning, I think, is backed up by the fact the on the bank documents, which you are supposed to sign with your "official" signature, the suspect used the illegible scrawl.
Anca Malureanu Nov 24, 2015:
when I accompanied clients to the notary to conclude formal documents, the notary would ask them to sign with their extended signature (firma estesa). Banks docs are similar, so maybe the formal long signature should be used. Usually, a person should use only one specimen signature on all the formal documents and not two different, so that later may not claim a signature on a doc is not his/hers. Maybe you can say short illegible signature and not a formal extended (or legible) signature.
Andreea Zlotea (asker) Nov 24, 2015:
Why I think Luke and Anca are right From the wording **questi documenti / quietanza** and **firma / sottoscrizione**, I take it to mean that the *sottoscrizione* refers to the private receipt. On the private document there is only the "firma leggibile" [well, almost legible], while on the bank documents there are both types of signatures. And I don't think the type of document matters, because, after all, isn't a bank form/contract "more" legally binding than a private document?
James (Jim) Davis Nov 24, 2015:
I have often been asked for a firma leggibile, but never have they specified "sottoscrizione". Ciò che si scrive sotto è la firma. See my reference posted in my answer below.
Andreea Zlotea (asker) Nov 23, 2015:
So, in the end, it should be: sottoscrizione = legible signature, while firma = illegible signature ?
philgoddard Nov 23, 2015:
I'm most convinced by Luke's and AncaPR's suggestions that one is an illegible scrawl and the other a legible signature.
Anca Malureanu Nov 23, 2015:
E’ stato sostenuto che esiste una differenza tra sottoscrizione e firma: per la prima
occorrerebbe l’espressa indicazione del nome e del cognome, mentre per la
seconda sarebbe sufficiente l’abbreviazione del prenome
http://www.dsg.univr.it/documenti/Avviso/all/all443964.pdf
Andreea Zlotea (asker) Nov 23, 2015:
Documents The documents he was asked about are those the suspect signed for the opening of a bank account, in which to receive some money for damages. The quietanza refers to a private document, for sums the lawyer gave the suspect as advances. Hope these clears the waters some more.
James (Jim) Davis Nov 23, 2015:
With Alison here It is essential to know what the "documenti" are. If only to be able to eliminate possibilities.
If you sign to subscribe to shares in a company or even to receive a magazine, then that is signing a document to subscribe the shares or to the magazine. We need to see more of the picture. After all "io il sottoscritto" is "I the undersigned".
Alison Kennedy Nov 23, 2015:
The translation will depend on the documents Obviously, this is a question of comparability of signature on various documents with a signature on a receipt that does not seem to be in question. What kind of documents are these? Are they contractual or another type of document? In a number of cases signature will cover most contexts but obviously the lawyer want to establish a difference. In my opinion (from your context) the act of just signing and that of executing the documents as a signatory. Without more context, it's difficult to distinguish what he actually wants to establish.
Andreea Zlotea (asker) Nov 23, 2015:
@Luke Unfortunatelly, I cannot contact the lawyer directly (I'm translating the file for a "rogatoria"). However, having seen the documents about which he was asked, indeed there are different types of signatures on them: several times the unreadable one, one time the "leggibile" one.
Luke Chambers Nov 23, 2015:
@Andreea Hmm, I can think of two possible reasons, but both seem unlikely:
1 - My Italian wife is always telling me off because my signature is not "leggibile" - sometimes documents ask you to put a "firma leggibile", which seems to be just be writing your name with some style added ;-). Could one of them be his 'real' signature and the other some kind of firma leggibile (or am I the only one who has an unreadable signature)?
2 - Could someone else have signed one of the documents? And the distinction is that one of them was less important so that was OK??

Anyway, this is guesswork. I'd suggest asking the lawyer (if possible) to explain what he means.
Andreea Zlotea (asker) Nov 23, 2015:
These two sentences are the final part of the answer given by the lawyer when asked about some documents. This is what I gathered, too: that he is, indeed, commenting on the appearance ... hence, my doubts about how to render it ....
Luke Chambers Nov 23, 2015:
Is he commenting on the actual appearance of sig? Could the person be comparing the physical appearance between the two signatures (i.e. "they look different") and then hypothesising as to the reason why?



Proposed translations

2 days 2 hrs
Selected

signature/formal signature

Here in the UK a person generally only has one signature - legible or otherwise. I remember the authorities in Turin saying my passport was invalid because I signed my middle name 'M' rather than the full name. Anyway I've found the link referred to below, amongst others, which I've based my answer on. I think you need to put something like this, a bit longwinded, but it gets the message across:

[This might be because] on the receipt he is simply signing to acknowledge receipt, whereas on these documents we have his formal signature as required by the bank.
Reference:

http://www.e-glossa.it/wiki/firme_e_sottoscrizione.aspx

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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+1
1 hr

signature vs autograph

.
Peer comment(s):
agree Anca Malureanu : but I would say autograph and not signature (he may have signed the bank docs by his autograph instead of his formal signature (the one used on formal documents, that is legally binding)
4 hrs
neutral philgoddard : Autograph usually relates to celebrities.
5 hrs
neutral James (Jim) Davis : With Phil, autograph is used as a legal term. Fans collect them.
20 hrs
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1 hr

authoris/zed signature or stamp vs. personal sign-off underneath

We need to be careful. There are very few true synonyms in law, even though online glossaries and dictionaries are peppered with the lazy and facile abbreviation of SYN.

cf. Firma in DE, often used to mean a business firm, but is legally an authority to sign as well as a corporate style, 'flourish' or signature.

Sotto- vs. soprascrizione. It's possible to sign a doc., report. deed or Will at the tpas well as bottom

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Note added at 1 hr (2015-11-23 10:10:35 GMT)
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at the top as well as....
Reference:

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/italian_to_english/law_patents/458758-con_firma_libera_e_disgiunta.html

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4 mins

signature vs. subscription

they are not quite absolute synonyms. See any EN dictionary

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Note added at 10 mins (2015-11-23 08:22:25 GMT)
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Webster's says, subscription is formal for a signature or short piece of writing at the end of a document: he signed the letter and added a subscription.

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Note added at 12 mins (2015-11-23 08:24:46 GMT)
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Italians love to quibble and add several synonyms in their documents, because it gives them something to do. If an Italian can complicate a document s/he will. Our job is to put them into the target in as simple a manner as possible, I believe. In my opinion, if you must keep to the source then use the terminology that is there in the target to keep everyone happy.

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Note added at 19 mins (2015-11-23 08:31:52 GMT)
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If you try to understand why Italians write the way they write you'll just give yourself a headache. I see this all the time.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2015-11-23 10:47:34 GMT)
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What is significant here, to avoid beating a dead horse over and over, is that you not change the substantive content of the source in your translation. If it is not particularly coherent, due to being too wordy, then you either choose to simplify it, leaving inconsistent repetitions out, or you use the source language as it translates into English. This will usually make everyone happy with your translation. That is our first objective. Trying to understand why attorneys in Italy write what they write can be a daunting and very time consuming endeavour. I have asked and many times, they cannot explain why other than 'that is how it's done.' Good luck!
Note from asker:
Hi, Cedric. When I wrote *absolute synonyms*, I was referring to the *signing of one's name/initials* meaning. I know sottoscrizione also has the *subscription* meaning, but it does not seem to be the case here, don't you think?
What I don't understand is why the person had to make that distinction .. and if he felt he had to [btw, if it helps, the person is a lawyer] .. surely I must try to do the same, no? [I have a feeling I'm missing some subtle nuance ...]
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13 hrs

signature vs. endorsement

My proposal
Reference:

http://www.wordreference.com/iten/sottoscrivere

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+1
5 hrs
Italian term (edited): di firma e non di sottoscrizione***.

just a receipt and not applications

perhaps because one is just a receipt and not an application (to open an account)

Perhaps with a footnote or similar explaining literally the Italian says "receipt and not a subscription" which makes little sense


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Note added at 21 hrs (2015-11-24 05:47:36 GMT)
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I wanted to put a reference to the discussion on leggible signatures, but I can't because I've already posted. I thing the leggible signature argument is a red herring

http://www.personaedanno.it/index.php?option=com_content&vie...

Diverse Pubbliche amministrazioni richiedono spesso che la firma apposta dall'utente sia leggibile. La leggibilità della firma è solitamente richiesta anche dai notai nella sottoscrizione degli atti notarili.

Nessuna norma giuridica prevede il realtà che la sottoscrizione sia "leggibile", anche in considerazione del fatto che, secondo i canoni grafologici, la firma costituisce un segno distintivo della propria personalità che può caratterizzarsi anche in una sottoscrizione illeggibile. Secondo l'accezione comune, per sottoscrizione si intende infatti la “firma redatta di proprio pugno, con la funzione di certificare l'attribuibilità del documento a colui che l'ha firmato".
Peer comment(s):
agree Peter Cox
20 hrs
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