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This question was closed without grading. Reason: Other
Sep 21, 2017 07:52
6 yrs ago
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French term

qui passe sur nos fils

French to English Social Sciences Government / Politics political speech
This is from the speech Jean-Luc Mélenchon gave on Place de la République in Paris in March.

"Écoutez, vous tous, cette clameur qui monte de nos rangs. [...]
Ce rugissement ***qui passe sur nos fils***, c'est celui du lion de bronze au pied du monument dont l'auteur a voulu qu'il symbolise le suffrage universel..."

The only sense I've made of it so far is as a reference to communication wires, but that would be pretty outdated in these days of WiFi and 4G - and this is after all Hologram Man speaking!

Very grateful for any bright ideas on the subject, thanks.

(By the way, I'm subtitling this, so any translation of this phrase needs to fit into 36 characters tops :-) )
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 humming in our wires
3 +1 the roar on our newsfeeds
3 roaring among the lines
3 -1 reverberating through our threads

Discussion

Victoria Britten (asker) Sep 26, 2017:
Many, many thanks to all I felt I couldn't award points on this one because the discussion here was more useful than the actual answers. It's frustrating but has to be.
Tony M Sep 22, 2017:
@ Victoria, Charles Although I entirely agree with Charles's (and Victoria's) comments about these rather colloquial uses of 'sur', I really don't think that is relevant here, for the simple reason that 'sur' is a perfectly normal preposition to use with the verb 'passer'; in this instance, if 'à' were to be used instead, it would be equally valid, BUT completely change the meaning.
'passer sur les ondes' is a not unusual, though rather dated, expression in connection with transmission by radio, and I think is perfectly justified if referring to some physical means of communication — or by extension, more figuratively.
It's true that in these days of social media, people often seem confused about whether to say 'sur mon journal' or 'dans mon journal', for example... espeically bearing in mind that originally, it was 'sur mon mur'!
I find it much harder to reconcile the use of 'sur', even in this highly colloquail usage, with Nikki's otherwise very lateral suggestion of 'files', where used with 'passer', it would almost seem to suggest 'passing over / above...'.
Victoria Britten (asker) Sep 22, 2017:
@Charles Absolutely - I live in France and can confirm this usage is now widespread - but that is "sur" used (for argument's sake) in place of "à", which is one specific usage that does not apply here. Once again, Mélenchon is a careful user of language: while he might choose to use a preposition the Académie (bless it) is still spluttering over, I don't believe he would just pluck one from the air at random. This is a prepared speech, not just extempore rabble-rousing: I can't help feeling I have to look to that "sur" as one clue to the meaning of "fil(e)s". Sadly, sleeping on it has not proved helpful.
Charles Davis Sep 21, 2017:
Preposition Those who live in France are better qualified to comment, but all I can say is that when I'm there nowadays (most recently at the end of August to help my son find a flat) I hear "sur" used in situations where I wouldn't have expected it. There's this "habiter sur Paris" or "chercher un appartement sur Paris" thing, which has become very common. The following comments are from the French Academy's reply to a query on the subject:

"L'usage de la préposition "sur" quand on attendrait "à" s'est répandue dans la langue populaire ou familière. [...]
Cette pauvre préposition sur est harassée. On la met à toutes les sauces."
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/habiter-à-sur-dans-p...

The case before us is different, but maybe it's symptomatic of this excessive use of "sur".
Victoria Britten (asker) Sep 21, 2017:
Well! Thanks to all for your contributions. The 'files' idea is very seductive but doesn't really sway me more than the 'fils' that is, as Charles has pointed out, given in all the sources found online (including Le Monde's quotations dictionary), the choice of preposition being another troubling factor. It's very odd: whatever one might think of his politics, Méluche has a better grasp and use of language than, let's say, certain - even most - recent president(ial candidate)s, but in this (no doubt lengthily prepared) speech this metaphor remains unclear, not to say slightly odd.
I have to send the blessed thing off first-ish thing tomorrow, so I'm going to sleep on it and see if I can work it out in a dream!
Ben Gaia Sep 21, 2017:
mixed metaphor Re thesaurus, I'm not keen on the image of "throwing up a raft". ;)
nweatherdon Sep 21, 2017:
Charles at 9:29 seems more on the mark here, I think.

This could be something like scrolling through newsfeeds on some variety of social media outlets or through other types of websites, apps, etc. And so then that lots of people are coming across that content in those ways.

Not sure of the preferred way to say it, but this seems likely as the underlying concept.
Charles Davis Sep 21, 2017:
It's an attractive theory Though all the online copies of Mélenchon's speech have "fils" (not that there are many). But that doesn't rule it out; websites copy from each other, so all it takes is for the first posting to have "fils" and it gets copied to the others.
katsy Sep 21, 2017:
I think Nikki's feeling is right filEs - it would be logical - rangs...files... a rhetorical device, and Melenchon's ability as an orator is well known
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Sep 21, 2017:
@Victoria cf. 12:05 You say that the "l" should be pronounced. There is probably no mistake with "nos" though. That leads me to be convinced that it is not "fils", but "filEs".
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Sep 21, 2017:
nos rangs / nos "filES"? Thanks to Charles' comment, I've rethought this one. Maybe "fils" should actually be "fiLEs". It would provide the link with "rangs" (rank) and "filES" (lines). I'd probably avoid the almost insctinctive use of rank and file, but I think the link could actually be there, adn have nothing at all to do with threads, feeds or owt' else.

What do y'all think? I think we might have been roaring up the wrong tree. ;-)
Lorraine Dubuc Sep 21, 2017:
2 different sentences Those sentences can be taken separately, I think.
Charles Davis Sep 21, 2017:
But my difficulty, as I say, is understanding how this "clameur qui monte de nos rangs", this "rugissement", the demands of the people Mélenchon speaks for, could be manifested in timelines, which are simply sources of information on events.
Lorraine Dubuc Sep 21, 2017:
As Charles suggests I thought of that too at first 'timelines'. That makes sense.
Charles Davis Sep 21, 2017:
Fils d'actualité This, which Lorraine suggested, might be the kind of "fils" Mélenchon's talking about, though they're not the same as newfeeds; they're timelines. But both newsfeeds (which emanate from news media) and timelines (which emanate from users of social media) are sources of news and information. I don't understand why the roar Mélenchon refers to should be heard there. Surely this roar, arising from "our ranks" (members of the public who think like Mélenchon, I presume) will be heard in media of commentary, opinion and debate. "Fils" must surely refer to that sort of thing.
nweatherdon Sep 21, 2017:
Wires require physical access to be hacked, whereas wireless means are ALWAYS vulnerable to hacking even when there is not physical access.

They are not backwards.
AllegroTrans Sep 21, 2017:
Try a Thesuarus.. for words like "humming" "reverberating" "wires" and "threads"
That should throw up a raft of ideas
Lorraine Dubuc Sep 21, 2017:
Je suis d'accord avec bohy Je suis aussi d'avis que l'on doit utiliser une figure de style en anglais pour traduire l'idée.
Lorraine Dubuc Sep 21, 2017:
qui passe sur nos fils Fils, référant aux fils d'actualité sur les réseaux sociaux surtout, donc fils référerait à 'news feed' et pas à fils comme les fils de téléphone. Ce dont il parle c'est que les gens réagissent et partagent leurs désaccords sur les réseaux sociaux. Du moins, c'est ainsi que je l'entends.
Charles Davis Sep 21, 2017:
@Victoria OK, I'll have a go. The trouble is that I am not at all a social media person and don't really know how to make it sound convincing. I'll probably get shot down. But still...
Anne Bohy Sep 21, 2017:
My mistake I heard the speech (instead of reading it) and it's the word "fil" not "fils".
Victoria Britten (asker) Sep 21, 2017:
@Tony & Charles Thanks for confirming my feeling (which, in a way I find often happens, became a near certainty as soon as I hit "submit"). BUT I hadn't got as far as "threads", which to my mind does indeed make more sense. Charles, do you want to post an answer?
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Sep 21, 2017:
rugir / lion This is not easy. I agree that this is about buzzing, humming, etc. How though, to account for the link between "rugir" (to roar) and the part about the "lion" it is obviously linked to? Can that image not be maintained?
After all, "rugir" is much stronger than hum or buzz.
Victoria Britten (asker) Sep 21, 2017:
@bohy Désolée, j'aurais dû dire : le 'l' est prononcé et le 's' ne l'est pas...
Charles Davis Sep 21, 2017:
Social media? With Tony on this, but perhaps taking "fils" to mean "threads" rather than "wires". "Fils" quite often seems to refer to that these days: "nos fils Facebook et Twitter", and so on.
Tony M Sep 21, 2017:
@ Asker I think it is indeed wires... he's making a very modern reference to other places where unrest is expressed... e.g. the Internet with social media etc.
OK, at user device level, it may be Wi-Fi etc. — but one still considers the Internet as a whole to be 'over wires (or fibre optics!)', as distinct from, say 'on the streets' or 'over the airwaves' (TSF!)
Anne Bohy Sep 21, 2017:
Cf. Marseillaise Vu le contexte du discours, plutôt lyrique, il s'agit des mêmes "fils" que dans la Marseillaise.
Cherchez donc une traduction des paroles de la Marseillaise...
Cela dit, le terme employé n'est pas parfaitement adapté au contexte, en français. Une certaine liberté de traduction s'impose donc.

Proposed translations

-1
2 hrs

reverberating through our threads

Assuming, as I've suggested above, that Mélenchon is referring here to fils (threads) on social media such as Facebook and Twitter. That seems to be where much of the political action is now, so in principle it could make sense.

My proposal just gets under the wire lengthwise: 33 characters including spaces.

I think reverberate goes quite well with roar. But I'm not sure whether literally using "threads" works. My problem is that I don't use this kind of language. So that's for others to judge.
Note from asker:
Thanks for this offering, Charles.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : I don't think so, Charles; I don't think he would use 'nos' if it was 'threads', nor do I think that 'passer sur' would be uses; you are really posting 'in' a thread or a forum...
3 hrs
I don't agree with your objections, Tony. "Nos" makes sense; it means the threads in which those in "nos rangs" engage, and though you post "in" a forum, a roar can reverberate "through" a thread (and "passer sur" makes sense to me for that)
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Thanks to your comment charles, I think this is not "fil" or "fils" but "filEs", as a synonyms for "rang". What do you think?
4 hrs
Gosh, that's a thought. And they'd he homophones, so faulty transcription is a possibility. It would make more sense.
disagree Ben Gaia : clunky
7 hrs
It doesn's seem so to me. But the real point here is to work out what it means.
neutral nweatherdon : A "thread" would be more like forum discussion thread, right? In which case referring to people talking about that? But he's probably not referring to this sort of organic discussion, but more related to algorithmic-driven newsfeeds after user sign-ups
7 hrs
Surely not referring to people talking about threads, but to threads themselves and Mélenchon supporters "roaring" in them. Can't see how user sign-ups could be described as a "roar", which implies people expressing their views.
Something went wrong...
+1
4 hrs
French term (edited): rugissement qui passe sur nos fils

the roar on our newsfeeds

Rather than threads, I suspect it is a ref to "newsfeed". If that's the case, then something with a lion and appetite could work.
Otherwise, hum/buzz just aren't strong enough in my view for "roar", even if it is a bit contrived to fit in with the lion. Whatever the image, I think it needs to be strong.


Écoutez, vous tous, cette clameur qui monte de nos rangs. [...]
Ce rugissement ***qui passe sur nos fils***, c'est celui du lion de bronze au pied du monument dont l'auteur a voulu qu'il symbolise le suffrage universel..."
« The roar on our newsfeeds is coming from the bronze lion..."



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2017-09-21 15:27:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Another point of view. Take "rangs" and "files" as synonyms and reread.

"Écoutez, vous tous, cette clameur qui monte de nos rangs. [...]"
- Listen now, this clamour rising up through our ranks [...]"

"Ce rugissement qui passe sur nos filEs, c'est celui du lion de bronze au pied du monument dont l'auteur a voulu qu'il symbolise le suffrage universel...\"
- The roaring that can be heard in the lines is that of the lion...."

You know, I reckon that it is more or less a repetition :
- clamour / rang
- rugissement / filE
Peer comment(s):
agree Lorraine Dubuc
7 mins
agree Tony M
1 hr
neutral Charles Davis : Maybe "fils" can mean "newsfeeds", but I find that idea strange here, since the roar is coming from those in "nos rangs", members of the public who support M, whereas newfeeds emanate from news media; why would they roar?
1 hr
No idea why they would roar. What I do see is the use of "rugir" to tie up with the bronze lion image. I take your point though. The whole thing is odd.// Maybe "fils" is actually meant to be "nos files" , as in "rangs". I'm back to the diisc. box.
disagree Ben Gaia : rugissement is not asked for in the term
1 day 13 hrs
Something went wrong...
7 hrs
French term (edited): rugissement qui passe sur nos fils

roaring among the lines

This is a medium +. I think we all got off on the wrong foot with "fil/fils". I think is has nothing at all to do with "htread,", "newsfeed" and everything to do with references to "rank" and "file", for "rang" and "filE". The Asker does explain there was an error in her writing "fil(s)". We went off down the track of thread, etc. I think that was wrong. It is an awkward term to get right, but I suspect it is much more difficult to get "nos" wrong. So I reckon it's actually meant to be "nos filEs".

If you accept that idea, the extract starts to make sense. My suggestion in the previous post, that I've deliberately left, has been added to. The explanation is there. Without Charles' comment, I'd not have come up with this re-read.
Note from asker:
Thanks a lot for all your work on this, Nikki. I love the outside-the-box thinking here but remain unconvinced that the word is "file". (What I in fact said was that it is pronounced /fil/ and not /fis/, but it is indeed - in all the transcriptions I found - written "fils".)
Peer comment(s):
neutral Ben Gaia : If so I would use "ranks". But it seems always best to assume things are NOT typos.
1 day 10 hrs
Something went wrong...
+2
9 mins

humming in our wires

You are right, it refers to the message spreading like wildfire, causing a ripple in society, a rumour of excitement, a frisson in our networks, a spike in our inboxes, this message, coursing though our veins, humming in our wires, cannot be ignored!!!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day17 hrs (2017-09-23 01:38:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If we include the whole phrase I would say "This roar we hear humming in our wires is that of the bronze lion crouching at the foot of the statue erected to represent Universal Suffrage." Clumsy rhetoric but effective in an excited crowd no doubt.
Note from asker:
I like that! (But I think I would say "...ON our wires".)
Peer comment(s):
agree DNHillson
37 mins
agree Tony M : Yes, but not 'humming' — too weak for 'rugir', and also, people may hum when they are contented! 'buzzing' perhaps is more appropiate for some electrical means of communication, and after all, we do talk about 'creating a buzz' (positive or negative!)
50 mins
yes buzzing
Something went wrong...
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