Aug 8, 2020 14:12
3 yrs ago
42 viewers *
French term
United States
consistance
French to English
Law/Patents
Law: Patents, Trademarks, Copyright
infringement dispute
From a written submission disputing an infringement seizure. The writer makes the point that the word has no usual meaning in the patent field and I have to agree. Any suggestions?
Les ordonnances autorisent également [the company] à découvrir « la nature, l’origine, la destination et l’étendue de la contrefaçon » ainsi que la « consistance » de la contrefaçon.
L’article R615-2, dernier alinéa, ne contient pas de mention de « la destination » ni de la « consistance » de la contrefaçon.
Ce qui pourrait relever de la « consistance » de la contrefaçon n’est pas expliqué dans la requête, et ce terme n’a pas de signification usuelle dans le domaine des brevets.
Les ordonnances autorisent également [the company] à découvrir « la nature, l’origine, la destination et l’étendue de la contrefaçon » ainsi que la « consistance » de la contrefaçon.
L’article R615-2, dernier alinéa, ne contient pas de mention de « la destination » ni de la « consistance » de la contrefaçon.
Ce qui pourrait relever de la « consistance » de la contrefaçon n’est pas expliqué dans la requête, et ce terme n’a pas de signification usuelle dans le domaine des brevets.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +2 | what [it] consists of |
Eliza Hall
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| 4 +1 | elements |
Francois Boye
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| 4 -1 | leave it in French |
philgoddard
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| 3 | nature / substance |
Mpoma
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| 3 -1 | extent |
AllegroTrans
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Proposed translations
+2
1 day 2 hrs
Eliza Hall
United States
United States
Native in English
Specializes in field
United States
Lawyer-Translator-Certified Interpreter
Native in: English (Variants: British, UK, US, Scottish, Canadian, Irish)
Works in: French to English, English to French
Related KudoZ points
:
4
Selected
what [it] consists of
Consistance in this context is just another way of saying what something is composed of or what it consists of ("en quoi consiste X?"). If the turn of phrase were different, this word could be rendered as "constituting" or similar.
"CONSISTANCE:
1. DR., vieilli. Ensemble des éléments qui composent une succession, un domaine et ses dépendances, la nature et l'étendue d'une terre. Synon. état, contenance. Héritage en consistance de...; donner un état de la consistance d'une terre; la consistance des effets et des dettes d'une succession (cf. consister)." https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/consistance
Same meaning, different legal context:
"Définition et consistance du domaine public" (clunky translation: "Definition of, and what constitutes, public property" -- this is about state-owned property, not "public domain" in the intellectual property sense):
https://cours-de-droit.net/la-consistance-du-domaine-public-...
A few uses in context:
"Le propriétaire d'une demande de brevet... a la possibilité de faire la preuve par tous moyens de la contrefaçon dont il se prétend victime....
Il est par ailleurs en droit de faire procéder, sur ordonnance du président du tribunal de grande instance du lieu de la contrefaçon présumée, par tous huissiers assistés d'experts de son choix, à la description détaillée, avec ou sans saisie réelle, des produits ou procédés prétendus contrefaits.... Dans la même ordonnance, le président du tribunal peut autoriser l'huissier à procéder à toute constatation utile en vue d'établir l'origine, la consistance et l'étendue de la contrefaçon."
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexteArticle.do;jsessio...
Same language and identical law in Morocco: https://www.marocdroit.com/LA-SAISIE-CONTREFACON-EN-MATIERE-...
"CONSISTANCE:
1. DR., vieilli. Ensemble des éléments qui composent une succession, un domaine et ses dépendances, la nature et l'étendue d'une terre. Synon. état, contenance. Héritage en consistance de...; donner un état de la consistance d'une terre; la consistance des effets et des dettes d'une succession (cf. consister)." https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/consistance
Same meaning, different legal context:
"Définition et consistance du domaine public" (clunky translation: "Definition of, and what constitutes, public property" -- this is about state-owned property, not "public domain" in the intellectual property sense):
https://cours-de-droit.net/la-consistance-du-domaine-public-...
A few uses in context:
"Le propriétaire d'une demande de brevet... a la possibilité de faire la preuve par tous moyens de la contrefaçon dont il se prétend victime....
Il est par ailleurs en droit de faire procéder, sur ordonnance du président du tribunal de grande instance du lieu de la contrefaçon présumée, par tous huissiers assistés d'experts de son choix, à la description détaillée, avec ou sans saisie réelle, des produits ou procédés prétendus contrefaits.... Dans la même ordonnance, le président du tribunal peut autoriser l'huissier à procéder à toute constatation utile en vue d'établir l'origine, la consistance et l'étendue de la contrefaçon."
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexteArticle.do;jsessio...
Same language and identical law in Morocco: https://www.marocdroit.com/LA-SAISIE-CONTREFACON-EN-MATIERE-...
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
SafeTex
: What it consists of in itself in a patent violation is of NO importance. it's the similarity with another product that counts. In other words, how "consistent" it is with the patented product = how similar !!!
29 mins
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You are unfortunately not understanding what this means (in FR or in patent law). As you'll see in the discussion, Daryo and PhB agree on what "consistance" means.
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| agree |
Cyril Tollari
: To my knowledge "consistance" doesn't mean consistent (false friend). I think this answer is the most helpful one so far, unless proved otherwise
18 hrs
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Merci.
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| neutral |
philgoddard
: How is this different to any of the previous answers?
21 hrs
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"Consisting of" is not a synonym of scope, extent, nature, similarity, etc. It means something different, and that is how it's different to previous answers.
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| agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: I agree with Cyril
1 day 4 hrs
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Merci.
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| agree |
Daryo
: i.e. what are the stages of this process
1 day 15 hrs
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Thanks, but see discussion (it's about what the goods to be seized consist of, not what the patent consists of).
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
-1
1 hr
AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Works in field
United Kingdom
Sensible solutions
Native in: English (Variant: Wessexois) 
Works in: French to English, English, English to French
Related KudoZ points
:
35
extent
Suggestion based on the fact that I see 'consistance' in French property deeds to describe the area of land in the Cadastre.
Extrapolating, perhaps this is about the extent of the trademark infringement
Extrapolating, perhaps this is about the extent of the trademark infringement
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
ph-b (X)
: Same as étendue de la contrefaçon in the source text?
2 mins
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well, scope....and extent, although near synonyms, is perhaps the meaning
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| disagree |
Eliza Hall
: No, that's étendue, of course.//ETA this appears (from original post + googling the phrase) to be about patent infringement, not TM infringement.//I agreed with PhB that it meant en quoi consiste.
1 day 1 hr
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you have agreed with ph-b that it means scope, extent or similarity, so your disagree is harsh
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| agree |
SafeTex
: To counter the ridiculous disagree. 'Extent" with your remarks simply didn't merit a disagree
1 day 4 hrs
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| disagree |
Daryo
: property deeds are unlikely to be of much help HERE anyway, but once we know that it's about a process, "extent" simply makes no sense.
2 days 16 hrs
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it's about the 'extent' of the infingement, think about it
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-1
3 hrs
philgoddard
United States
United States
Native in English
United States
Six languages into flawless English
Native in: English
Works in: German to English, French to English, Spanish to English, and 4 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
23
leave it in French
...and add a translator's note saying something like this:
'"Consistance" means "nature"or "extent". The writer is querying its meaning, since both of these words are used elsewhere in the paragraph.'
Since they're discussing a specific French word, I think it would be wrong to try and translate it.
'"Consistance" means "nature"or "extent". The writer is querying its meaning, since both of these words are used elsewhere in the paragraph.'
Since they're discussing a specific French word, I think it would be wrong to try and translate it.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
SafeTex
: the problem is that the reader will not know what aspect "n’est pas expliqué dans la requête, et ce terme n’a pas de signification usuelle dans le domaine des brevets". But maybe this approach with the translation in brackets after "consistance" in FR
12 mins
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As I said, you can put this information in a translator's note. But brackets would be OK too.
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| neutral |
Eliza Hall
: No need to leave it in French -- we have synonyms (consisting of, comprising, constituting...)
23 hrs
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You haven't bothered to read my explanation.
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| disagree |
Daryo
: this word is not floating in thin air - once you take into account the context of this ST, it becomes perfectly translatable - and should be translated (as you would expect it to be in a translated text) // It's not some novel concept
2 days 14 hrs
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+1
1 day 2 hrs
Francois Boye
United States
United States
Native in French
United States
An economic geek with social skills
Native in: French
Works in: English to French, French to English, Spanish to English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
4
elements
consistance = les éléments qui constituent la contrefaçon
TRADEMARK COUNTERFEITING -- ELEMENTS -- 18 U.S.C. § 2320
In order to establish the criminal offense under 18 U.S.C. § 2320, the government must prove: (1) that the defendant trafficked or attempted to traffic in goods or services; (2) that such trafficking, or attempt to traffic, was intentional; (3) that the defendant used a "counterfeit mark" on or in connection with such goods or services; and (4) that the defendant knew that the mark so used was counterfeit.
According to the text submitted by Asker, there is no specification of the elements of counterfeit in France
TRADEMARK COUNTERFEITING -- ELEMENTS -- 18 U.S.C. § 2320
In order to establish the criminal offense under 18 U.S.C. § 2320, the government must prove: (1) that the defendant trafficked or attempted to traffic in goods or services; (2) that such trafficking, or attempt to traffic, was intentional; (3) that the defendant used a "counterfeit mark" on or in connection with such goods or services; and (4) that the defendant knew that the mark so used was counterfeit.
According to the text submitted by Asker, there is no specification of the elements of counterfeit in France
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Eliza Hall
: A huissier wouldn't be able to determine the elements of the crime.//The point is that that's not what this is about. It's not the elements of infringement; it's what the counterfeit items consist of.
35 mins
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what's the point?// your interpretation is false because a) the elements establish a sound counterfeit case and b) consistance's figurative meaning in French is something that is soundly established i
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| agree |
philgoddard
: Eliza, if you're not careful you'll become another Daryo, scattering unjustified disagrees left, right, and centre.
21 hrs
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Thanks!
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| agree |
SafeTex
: I'm now convinced that this was the first correct answer. The elements that the copy consists of
1 day 1 hr
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Thanks!
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5 days
nature / substance
This is puzzling. I just looked up R615-2 of the Code de la Prop. Intellectuelle, and, I quote:
"Le président peut autoriser l'huissier à procéder à toute constatation utile en vue d'établir l'origine, la consistance et l'étendue de la contrefaçon."
But in fact that is the penultimate para. The final para says this:
"Afin d'assurer la protection du secret des affaires, le président peut ordonner d'office le placement sous séquestre provisoire des pièces saisies, dans les conditions prévues à l'article R. 153-1 du code de commerce."
Be that as it may, my suggestion is not that different from the other answers... but I think we need to find a word with the wrong register: i.e. too general or informal. Such that we won't be surprised to hear a counsel dismissing a quest to determine this attribute of the infringement as laughable (even though the counsel appears to be talking rubbish).
"Le président peut autoriser l'huissier à procéder à toute constatation utile en vue d'établir l'origine, la consistance et l'étendue de la contrefaçon."
But in fact that is the penultimate para. The final para says this:
"Afin d'assurer la protection du secret des affaires, le président peut ordonner d'office le placement sous séquestre provisoire des pièces saisies, dans les conditions prévues à l'article R. 153-1 du code de commerce."
Be that as it may, my suggestion is not that different from the other answers... but I think we need to find a word with the wrong register: i.e. too general or informal. Such that we won't be surprised to hear a counsel dismissing a quest to determine this attribute of the infringement as laughable (even though the counsel appears to be talking rubbish).
Discussion
Until you start making the difference between the process and the end result.
Just because the end result looks the same (what "un huissier" is perfectly competent to assess) doesn't prove always / automatically that the same process was used (THAT is far trickier and requires an expert opinion).
If you have a patent for car tyres that can do 1.000.000 km, that doesn't mean that all and any tyre that can do 1.000.000 km must have been made using your patent.
or a better example: you find a way to make tyres of all imaginable colours, and get a patent. Someone else selling coloured tyres could have used their own process, not necessarily yours.
But let's not digress. Anyway it wouldn't change much the meaning of "consistance de XYZ", it would still be "= en quoi consiste XYZ"
When you hold the patent on a process of making something, you have the right to block others from importing goods that were made with that process. Here's a link: https://ocpatentlawyer.com/process-patent-blocks-importation...
Joan's post says the context is the seizure of allegedly infringing goods. IOW, Party A holds a patent on XYZ process; Party B allegedly made goods using that process and tried to import them into A's country; A thus went to court to stop the importation, and the goods now may be seized (from whatever customs warehouse they're currently in, presumably).
As part of the process of deciding whether to seize them, a huissier will go examine them and report back to the judge re: their nature, origin, what they consist of, etc.
"what are the elements / stages of the process" -- the huissier won't speak to that, as that is all spelled out in the patent. The court knows from the patent what the process is. The huissier helps determine if it's likely the goods were made using that process.
You would more expect an expert (in that narrow field) to called to analyse the "copied process". It would be rather a tall order to expect from your average "huissier" to understand the fine points of some industrial process.
OTOH, the ST surely must make sense - once you have ALL the elements of this story.
It does make it clearer what "consistance" would mean: what are the elements / stages of the process -including all the settings that would make some product "unique" (I remember the story of an expert that visited the factory of the competion - they showed him everything - no big deal as everyone was using more or less the same equipment - expect few settings that made all the difference.)
Also, this would be relevant:
https://www.murielle-cahen.com/publications/brevet.asp
SafeTex
But why then did you disagree with François who said "elements" and noted "consistance = les éléments qui constituent la contrefaçon
As philgoddard says when he agreed with Francois: "Eliza, if you're not careful you'll become another XXXXX, scattering unjustified disagrees left, right, and centre.
Others have commented on the past on this too.
You may be right on this occasion but you shoot down very similar suggestions to your own at the same time which causes animosity and you often disagree with answers that are chosen at the end of the day (by others or by the asker).
Regards
SafeTex
PS I will withdraw my suggestion but I will vote for François who was the first to get it right. Not for your "synonym" in this context.
@AllegroTrans: "we need to do is to look at "la nature, l’origine, la destination, l’étendue and la consistance" of a patent infringement" -- no, not at all. The nature, origin, purpose, etc. is of the counterfeit goods themselves. What do they consist of? What are they made of? Where did they come from? etc.
@SafeTex and Joan Berglund: "ce terme n’a pas de signification usuelle dans le domaine des brevets" -- Right, it's not a term of patent jargon. It's a general legal term that means what something consists of, is comprised of, etc.:
"Héritage en consistance de...; donner un état de la consistance d'une terre; la consistance des effets et des dettes d'une succession (cf. consister)." https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/consistance
"Définition et consistance du domaine public" ("Definition of, and what constitutes, public property"): https://cours-de-droit.net/la-consistance-du-domaine-public-...
Sans consistance, qui manque de caractère, de fermeté ; qui est sans fondement, sans réalité.
Ce qui pourrait relever de la « consistance » de la contrefaçon n’est pas expliqué dans la requête, et ce terme n’a pas de signification usuelle dans le domaine des brevets.
This last part actually warns us that any "normal" interpretation may be lacking or wrong.
Anyway, a lot of us (would) agree with "substance" but unfortunately, it's not up as a suggestion.
Regards
We cannot possibly know at this stage -- the bit you keep missing is that all these things ("la nature, l’origine, la destination et l’étendue de la contrefaçon") are observed and reported on by a huissier who is standing in the warehouse (or wherever) examining the counterfeit goods. And the huissier's job is NOT to determine whether anything was infringed. That's the job of the court (judge or jury, depending how the trial is conducted).
All the huissier is doing is writing up a report that will be provided to the court and the owner of the IP (see the links in my answer). To use your example, the report might include this: "The alleged counterfeits consist of 6 boxes of t-shirts, each shirt being marked with three partially overlapping squares and a circle in the middle."
So lets say for a moment that your answer is right ("what it consists of")
Now let's imagine we have a trademark that "consists of" say three partially overlapping squares and a circle somewhere in the middle, maybe all in different colours.
Is this trademark an infringement of a protected trademark?
Who the heck knows with your translation as it is completely detached from the idea of SIMILARITY.
To know if it is an infringement, we need to know BOTH designs and therefore the question of SIMILARITY obviously comes into play in patents
Or to use the root "consistent", if the trademark is consistently like the protected trademark, it is deemed to be too similar and thus a copy of sorts.
Product, process or trademark, the idea of protection is to avoid counterfeits and copies that are too similar.
It doesn't mean "nature." It doesn't mean "extent" or "scope," or "similarity."
Consistance, in law, means what the thing consists of, what comprises it, what constitutes it. PhB and I have both provided links to that effect, and Daryo has agreed as well.
The person who establishes the "consistance" of the seized goods is the huissier who examines and documents them, in the warehouse (or wherever) that they're held in. Whether the seized goods are similar to trademarked goods isn't something a huissier is competent to determine; that question will be for the judge or jury (depending on the legal system and type of trial).
And since this is about patents anyway, the question of similarity doesn't matter -- two goods can be very similar without one of them infringing the patent covering the other.
This is about patented products and trademarks, counterfeits and copies.
The question is how "consistent" (SIMILAR), the counterfeit/copy is to the patented product/trademark.
I think that everyone was on this line of thought more or less
It's the similarity with the protected product/trademark that counts of course.
Even suggestions like "substance", "elements" or "extent" probably have "similarity" in mind even if not always categorically stated.
As AllegroTrans says himself, when he suggests "extent"
Extrapolating, perhaps this is about the extent of the trademark infringement
You are a real pain with your disagrees as you often shoot down useful ideas and even right answers only to put up something yourself that simply does not hold water. It's sad and counterproductive for the group in my humble opinion.
consistance de la contrefaçon = en quoi consiste la contrefaçon?
OTOH this one is self-explanatory:
la destination de la contrefaçon = for what kind of clients / markets the counterfeit goods are intented i.e. for the same clients / markets are the "real thing" or for those well aware they are buying just knock-offs. The damage caused is far from being the same in both cases.
I like this. Nice translation
(© Le Grand Robert de la langue française) Not your context exactly, but similar?