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fából vaskarikát

English translation: (here) to tackle an impossible task /see also: self-contradictory statement/

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Hungarian term or phrase:fából vaskarikát
English translation:(here) to tackle an impossible task /see also: self-contradictory statement/
Entered by: Ildiko Santana

09:03 Aug 19, 2012
Hungarian to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters / expression
Hungarian term or phrase: fából vaskarikát
fából vaskarika:
képtelen állítás, ellentmondás

Köszönöm!
Ilona Roberts
Norway
Local time: 23:42
self-contradictory statement, paradox
Explanation:
There is no straight translation. This expression represents any statement that is self-contradictory, a paradox, an absurdity.

Fából vaskarika = önmagával való ellentmondás, képtelen állítás.
"An iron ring made of wood"
(Forrás: Paczolay Gyula: 750 magyar közmondás, 750 Hungarian proverbs by Gyula Paczolay)
http://terebess.hu/english/proverbeng.html

Fából vaskarika
Literally: “iron ring made of wood” (ring as a round circle-shape, not in the jewelry sense)
(idiomatic) attempt at a logical impossibility
(idiomatic, exaggeration) an essential contradiction
Az alkoholmentes sör fából vaskarika. - Alcohol-free beer is "like an iron ring made of wood".
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fából_vaskarika

Self-contradiction (self contradictory statement) a statement which is necessarily false on the basis of its logical structure. A self contradictory statement both asserts and denies the same predicate of the subject, e.g., "This is a rose and it is not a rose." or "New Orleans is the largest City in Louisiana and New Orleans is not the largest city in Louisiana."
Both tutologies and self-contradiction make use of the concepts of "necessity" applied to truth value:
Necessary truth: logically impossible to be other than true.
Descartes formulated the concept of necessary truth such that a statement is said to be "necessarily true" if it is logically impossible to deny it (i.e., believe it to be false). Note that what is required is logical impossibility (not physical or psychological impossibility). Thus for example the analytic statement, "All triangles are three sided." is necessarily true because it is logically impossible to conceive of what it would take to deny this claim, namely a "non-three-sided triangle." What would such a thing be?
http://www.loyno.edu/~folse/typesofstatements.html

other examples: non-alcoholic beer, deafening silence, barefoot shoes, felmondás közös megegyezéssel...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2012-08-19 18:55:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Kiegészítés a további szövegkörnyezet alapján:

A lehetetlen feltételek mellett teljesítendő próbák a gyermekmesék kedvelt elemei, itt ezek szerint valami hasonlót keresel angolul. Sok változat elképzelhető, hagyatkozz a megérzésedre a fordításban. :) Segítségül:

"There are many stories, legends, fables, and fairy tales across cultures that involve a hero or an ordinary person tackling impossible tasks – tasks that require divine assistance (help from the gods or magical beings) in order to complete. Sometimes these tasks involve a quest for immortality, as is the case with Gilgamesh in The Epic of Gilgamesh, or with Juan Ponce de León in the popular legend about his search for the Fountain of Youth. Other examples of impossible tasks are found in popular fairy tales like "Rumpelstiltskin" or "Cinderella." In "Rumpelstiltskin," the miller's daughter must spin an entire room full of hay into gold. Cinderella must clean an entire castle by herself in one day or else her stepmother won't let her attend the ball of her dreams."

"Ask him to find me an acre of land
Between the salt water and the sea-strand,
Plough it with a lamb's horn,
Sow it all over with one peppercorn,
Reap it with a sickle of leather,
And gather it up with a rope made of heather,
Then he'll be the true love of mine.
— Scarborough Fair
The Impossible Task is a favorite theme in myths and legends, folklore and Fairy Tales the world over..."

"Fairy Tale Logic
Fairy tales are full of impossible tasks:
Gather the chin hairs from a man-eating goat,
Or cross a sulfuric lake in a leaky boat,
Select the prince from a row of identical masks,
Tiptoe up to a dragon where it basks
And snatch its bone; count dust specks, mote by mote,
Or learn a phone directory by rote."
....
More impossible tasks:
- Fetch water in a sieve.
- Make a rope of ashes.
- Marry a monster. Hand over your first-born son.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2012-08-19 18:58:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Tehát a kiegészítés alapján a kifejezésnek nem ez az értelmezése vonatkozik: "an essential contradiction", hanem a másodikként megadott értelmezése:
(idiomatic) attempt at a logical impossibility
Selected response from:

Ildiko Santana
United States
Local time: 14:42
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +5self-contradictory statement, paradox
Ildiko Santana
4? / A leopard cannot change its spots (lent magyarázat)
János Untener
3 +1square the circle
Andras Mohay (X)


Discussion entries: 7





  

Answers


6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
? / A leopard cannot change its spots (lent magyarázat)


Explanation:
you can't get a quart into a pint pot
British proverb: you cannot achieve the impossible.
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/quart
Expression said to indicate that what is being discussed is not possible.
http://www.wordnik.com/words/you can't get a quart into a pi...

szóval mit is jelent a fából vaskarikát?
Azt is írod, hogy "képtelen állítás, ellentmondás", így először is jelentheti a lehetetlent, ugyanis fából nem lehet vaskarikát csinálni, szerintem ez a jelentése is él, így írok egy ilyen megoldást is, ha erre van szükséged,
DE
O. Nagy Gábor szerint:
Fából vaskarikát csinálni nem lehet/Fából vaskarika sose lesz = nem lehet vkit vagy vmit azzá tenni, amire egyáltalán nem alkalmas, ami a lényegével ellenkezik.

A leopard cannot change its spots
The notion that things cannot change their innate nature.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/226350.html
a person cannot change who they are, a person cannot change their identity
http://www.idiomeanings.com/idioms/a-leopard-cant-change-its...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2012-08-19 16:16:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

bár egyszer már válaszoltam hasonlót itt, csak nem nyertem:
http://hun.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_hungarian/history/40003...

János Untener
Hungary
Local time: 23:42
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in HungarianHungarian
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Ildiko Santana: Szerintem ez a "kutyából nem lesz szalonna" magyarázata és a 'leopard can't change its spots' annak angol megfelelője. Jelentése inkább az, hogy nem tudjuk erőszakkal megváltoztatni vki alaptermészetét, 'you can't put a square peg in a round hole'.
1 hr
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

7 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +5
fából vaskarika
self-contradictory statement, paradox


Explanation:
There is no straight translation. This expression represents any statement that is self-contradictory, a paradox, an absurdity.

Fából vaskarika = önmagával való ellentmondás, képtelen állítás.
"An iron ring made of wood"
(Forrás: Paczolay Gyula: 750 magyar közmondás, 750 Hungarian proverbs by Gyula Paczolay)
http://terebess.hu/english/proverbeng.html

Fából vaskarika
Literally: “iron ring made of wood” (ring as a round circle-shape, not in the jewelry sense)
(idiomatic) attempt at a logical impossibility
(idiomatic, exaggeration) an essential contradiction
Az alkoholmentes sör fából vaskarika. - Alcohol-free beer is "like an iron ring made of wood".
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fából_vaskarika

Self-contradiction (self contradictory statement) a statement which is necessarily false on the basis of its logical structure. A self contradictory statement both asserts and denies the same predicate of the subject, e.g., "This is a rose and it is not a rose." or "New Orleans is the largest City in Louisiana and New Orleans is not the largest city in Louisiana."
Both tutologies and self-contradiction make use of the concepts of "necessity" applied to truth value:
Necessary truth: logically impossible to be other than true.
Descartes formulated the concept of necessary truth such that a statement is said to be "necessarily true" if it is logically impossible to deny it (i.e., believe it to be false). Note that what is required is logical impossibility (not physical or psychological impossibility). Thus for example the analytic statement, "All triangles are three sided." is necessarily true because it is logically impossible to conceive of what it would take to deny this claim, namely a "non-three-sided triangle." What would such a thing be?
http://www.loyno.edu/~folse/typesofstatements.html

other examples: non-alcoholic beer, deafening silence, barefoot shoes, felmondás közös megegyezéssel...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2012-08-19 18:55:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Kiegészítés a további szövegkörnyezet alapján:

A lehetetlen feltételek mellett teljesítendő próbák a gyermekmesék kedvelt elemei, itt ezek szerint valami hasonlót keresel angolul. Sok változat elképzelhető, hagyatkozz a megérzésedre a fordításban. :) Segítségül:

"There are many stories, legends, fables, and fairy tales across cultures that involve a hero or an ordinary person tackling impossible tasks – tasks that require divine assistance (help from the gods or magical beings) in order to complete. Sometimes these tasks involve a quest for immortality, as is the case with Gilgamesh in The Epic of Gilgamesh, or with Juan Ponce de León in the popular legend about his search for the Fountain of Youth. Other examples of impossible tasks are found in popular fairy tales like "Rumpelstiltskin" or "Cinderella." In "Rumpelstiltskin," the miller's daughter must spin an entire room full of hay into gold. Cinderella must clean an entire castle by herself in one day or else her stepmother won't let her attend the ball of her dreams."

"Ask him to find me an acre of land
Between the salt water and the sea-strand,
Plough it with a lamb's horn,
Sow it all over with one peppercorn,
Reap it with a sickle of leather,
And gather it up with a rope made of heather,
Then he'll be the true love of mine.
— Scarborough Fair
The Impossible Task is a favorite theme in myths and legends, folklore and Fairy Tales the world over..."

"Fairy Tale Logic
Fairy tales are full of impossible tasks:
Gather the chin hairs from a man-eating goat,
Or cross a sulfuric lake in a leaky boat,
Select the prince from a row of identical masks,
Tiptoe up to a dragon where it basks
And snatch its bone; count dust specks, mote by mote,
Or learn a phone directory by rote."
....
More impossible tasks:
- Fetch water in a sieve.
- Make a rope of ashes.
- Marry a monster. Hand over your first-born son.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2012-08-19 18:58:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Tehát a kiegészítés alapján a kifejezésnek nem ez az értelmezése vonatkozik: "an essential contradiction", hanem a másodikként megadott értelmezése:
(idiomatic) attempt at a logical impossibility

Ildiko Santana
United States
Local time: 14:42
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in HungarianHungarian, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 48
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
Notes to answerer
Asker: Köszönöm szépen Ildikó, sok a jó ötlet itt! A megoldás (jól mondod): gyerekmeséket olvasni angolul! :)


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  denny (X): Fetch water in a sieve
3 hrs
  -> Köszönöm
agree  Ted Toghia
4 hrs
  -> Köszönöm
agree  Katalin Horváth McClure: Szerintem a szó szerinti "iron ring made of wood" teljesen jó a mesébe, mert egy tárgy kell, amit elmegy megkeresni.//Szerintem mindegy, hogy karika vagy gyűrű, vagy kifejezett célja van a karikának? De lehet iron hoop is, vagy akár wheel, mindegy.
7 hrs
  -> Köszi. Én kerülném a 2értelmű ring szót. Nekünk könnyű, mert a karika az karika, de 1 angolul értőnek szerintem elsőre 1 gyűrű fog beugrani, pedig nem arról van szó (kinek is kéne fa vagy vas gyűrű?) Én körülnéznék kicsit az adott célország mesevilágában.
agree  Andras Mohay (X): Még precízebben "oxymoron" a tudományos neve / Bocs, de ez az a "type of paradox", amelyet oxymoronnak nevezünk. A paradoxon jóval tágabb az itteni esetnél, csak ez ismertebb szó, mint az oxymoron.
14 hrs
  -> Köszi. (Nem a 'tudományos neve', csak 1 fajtája. "An oxymoron is a type of paradox that combines two terms ordinarily seen as opposites, such as 'Dark with excessive bright'" "Oxymoron is a figure of speech that combines two normally contradictory terms")
agree  Michael Moskowitz: But you can avoid the dual meaning of the "ring" by saying "iron wheel of wood"
20 hrs
  -> Köszönöm
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

22 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
square the circle


Explanation:
No jó, van "kerek erdő", "monorau kereku":

http://mnytud.arts.klte.hu/szakdolgozat/1617/cseh_a_1617.pdf

de azért meg lehet próbálni a fentivel...

Az meg odakiáltott neki: "Látom, éhes vagy! Szaladj el, hozzál nekem fából vaskarikát, és akkor kapsz a húsból meg az uborkából. Kenyeret is kapsz!" Lajos már futott is. Majd csak megleli valahol azt a fából vaskarikát. Ami nincs is.
- És meglelte?
- Meg - bólintott Mikkamakka. - Mert találkozott velem.
- Azóta itt lakik a ***Négyszögletű Kerek*** Erdőben - mondtam.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2012-08-20 07:41:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Ervin Lazar" + "Gurken" keresőszavakra a német fordítás is bejött. Ez Horváth McClure Kati javaslatát támasztja alá.

Ennek ellenére én itt --és csak itt-- megpróbálkoznék a kör négyszögesítésével :-)
<Ich sehe, dass du Hunger hast! Mach dich auf die Beine und bring mir einen hölzernen Eisenring, dann gebe ich dir etwas vom Fleisch und von den Gurken ab. Brot kriegst du auch!>
Und Ludwig lief auch schon. Irgendwo würde er schon so einen hölzernen Eisenring auftreiben. Dabei gibt es sowas doch gar nicht.”
„Und, hat er einen gefunden?”
„Ja.” - nickte Mickamacka. - „Weil er mich getroffen hat.”
„Seitdem wohnt er hier im Viereckigen Runden Wald.” - sagte ich.

http://roobert.eu/Der_Viereckige_Runde_Wald/


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2012-08-20 07:53:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"cucumbers"-zel angolra rákeresve csak ez jött be:

http://www.cerisepress.com/02/04/benny-bean-and-the-fairitch...

Andras Mohay (X)
Local time: 23:42
Native speaker of: Native in HungarianHungarian
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Andariel
227 days
  -> Köszönöm :-)
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