This question was closed without grading. Reason: Нет приемлемых ответов
Nov 20, 2007 18:24
16 yrs ago
7 viewers *
русский term

собственник и владелец

русский => английский Техника Строительство / Строительная техника Law on Roads
How do we separate these two "owners"?

сведения о собственнике, владельце автомобильной дороги

Discussion

David Knowles (asker) Nov 22, 2007:
Final thoughts We've gone for "owner" and "proprietor", probably with a short translator's note. The basic distinction (in this law at least) is between public and private ownership. Private owners are proper owners, and public owners are custodians (I suppose that could be another translation!).
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 21, 2007:
not too worried about the points really :) I think everyone has done a great job in helping you. Still not quite agree with the "de facto bit" <-- it's not the case here.
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 21, 2007:
"just noticed" that is :D Looks like I need to have a decent sleep ASAP. Been working late nights.
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 21, 2007:
just mentioned that I haven't fully cited Art.216(1) ends with "... право хозяйственного ведения имуществом (статья 294) и право оперативного управления имуществом (статья 296)" <-- all these rights are limited because the rlimits on right of disposal.
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 21, 2007:
Basically, in your case, "владелец" is a person who holds a (legal) title in relation to the road. I can't give you a shorter answer though unfortunately. Road title holder <-- not entirely sure about that; doesn't sound very English :)
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 21, 2007:
In this respect I think the term "title owner/holder" is the most appropriate, where "title" (титул) is a legal basis/reason for a particular right (whether it's the right of ownership or one of the rights listed in Article 216 of the Civil Code)
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 21, 2007:
Therefore, "владелец" here means a person who has one of the rights named in Article 216 of the Code Code. And owner is the person who has all three rights as mentioned above (Article 209(1) of the Civil Code)
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 21, 2007:
1. Вещными правами наряду с правом собственности, в частности, являются:
право пожизненного наследуемого владения земельным участком (статья 265);
право постоянного (бессрочного) пользования земельным участком (статья 268);
сервитуты (статьи 274, 277)
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 21, 2007:
Статья 216. Вещные права лиц, не являющихся собственниками.
http://www.garweb.ru/PROJECT/LAW/doc/10064072/10064072-022.h...
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 21, 2007:
among the righs in rem, on one hand you have a right of ownership, on the other hand you have limited rights in rem, named in the Civil Code
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 21, 2007:
Therefore, "владелец" here is a person that has one of the rights ("jus") in rem, where "rem" here is the road itself as "piece" of property.
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 21, 2007:
Once they've given a definition, the text and the relevant term in the text needs to be used/construed in accordance with the given definitions.
David Knowles (asker) Nov 21, 2007:
Question closing For the first time, I'm closing a question without grading! Nadezhda would get the points but hasn't given a formal answer. I've resolved the matter with a translator's note at the point where владелец автомобильной дороги is defined, and by putting "owner or de-facto owner" here. Let's see what the proof-reader makes of it.
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 21, 2007:
the key phrase here is "ВЛАДЕЮЩИЕ НА ВЕЩНОМ ПРАВЕ". Вещное право is normally translated by giving its Latin equivalent "jus in rem" and ownership right is one of the types of "jus in rem"
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 21, 2007:
владеющие автомобильными дорогами на вещном праве в соответствии с законодательством Российской Федерации;
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 21, 2007:
erm... no, I am wrong considering the definition "владельцы автомобильных дорог" - исполнительные органы государственной власти, местная администрация (исполнительно-распорядительный орган муниципального образования), физические или юридические лица,
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 21, 2007:
I would suggest to omit the "de facto bit" as it might lead to further ambiguity; de facto vs de jure <-- I don't think it's the case here. I am inclined to agree with your suggestion of owner --> road owner without distinguishing them at all.
David Knowles (asker) Nov 21, 2007:
de-facto owner Thinking about this overnight, I think that "de-facto road owner" becomes a usable translation. I'm not convinced the law writers have been consistent in their usage, but one of the unstated aims of the law seems to be to make de-facto owners de-jure owners (possibly so they can be forced to maintain the roads).
David Knowles (asker) Nov 20, 2007:
To Nadezhda Yes that's the one - hot off the press! I understand the distinction between possession and ownership, and I also understand that in Russia the distinction may be very unclear. However, most of the time in this law, владелец автомбильнового дорога is used, and I can't really write "road possessor", so I have to put "road owner". In this part собственник and владелец are distinguished. I'm inclined to fudge it with "ownership"!
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 20, 2007:
is ot the Federal Law regulating the roads, etc.? No 257-FZ? http://www.consultant.ru/online/base/?data=aoGytVUHZE0ekD2UA...
If so, they meant owner OR posessor, but as usual, it's been messed it up :)
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 20, 2007:
The relevant article of the Civil Code is Article 209. Содержание права собственности
1. Собственнику принадлежат права владения, пользования и распоряжения своим имуществом...
Nadezhda Kirichenko Nov 20, 2007:
Russian civil law has a distinction between ownership rights and other rights in rem. Ownership or the right of ownership includes 3 rights: right of possession; right of use and, finanly, right of disposal.

Proposed translations

+1
5 мин

owner in possession

of motor road
Peer comment(s):

agree Valery Kaminski : if it is the same person
7 мин
Спасибо, Валерий!
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+1
7 мин

owner and possessor

-
Peer comment(s):

agree Nadezhda Kirichenko
2 час
Спасибо!
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9 мин

owner vs possessor

one might possess sth without holding a respective ownership title (e.g. lessee)
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+1
1 час

внизу

Ваш пример я бы перевела:

information / facts about the owner which possesses the roads

К дискуссии об "owner vs possessor":

"owner" n. - one who has legal title or right to something. Contrary to the cynical adage: "Possession is nine-tenths of the law," possession does not necessarily make one a legal owner.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/owner

Thomson Gale published this article: ("possession." West's Encyclopedia of American Law. The Gale Group, Inc, 1998. Answers.com 20 Feb. 2007. http://www.answers.com/topic/possession):

Possession versus Ownership

Although the two terms are often confused, possession is not the same as ownership. No legal rule states that "possession is nine-tenths of the law," but this phrase is often used to suggest that someone who possesses an object is most likely its owner. Likewise, people often speak of the things they own, such as clothes and dishes, as their possessions. However, the owner of an object may not always possess the object. For example, an owner of a car could lend it to someone else to drive. That driver would then possess the car. However, the owner does not give up ownership simply by lending the car to someone else.

The myriad distinctions between possession and ownership, and the many nuances of possession, are complicated even for attorneys and judges. To avoid confusion over exactly what is meant by possession, the word is frequently modified by adding a term describing the type of possession. For example, possession may be actual, adverse, conscious, constructive, exclusive, illegal, joint, legal, physical, sole, superficial, or any one of several other types. Many times these modifiers are combined, as in "joint constructive possession." All these different kinds of possession, however, originate from what the law calls "actual possession."
http://dict.leo.org/forum/viewGeneraldiscussion.php?idThread...
Peer comment(s):

agree Yuri Geifman : good references... similar to owner vs. holder
32 мин
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+1
2 час

owner and holder

Civil Code of the RF:

Статья 264. Права на землю лиц, не являющихся собственниками
земельных участков

1. Земельные участки и находящееся на них недвижимое имущество
могут предоставляться их собственниками другим лицам в постоянное
или срочное пользование, в том числе в аренду.
2. Лицо, не являющееся собственником земельного участка,
осуществляет принадлежащие ему права владения и пользования
участком на условиях и в пределах, установленных законом или
договором с собственником.
3. Владелец земельного участка, не являющийся собственником, не
вправе распоряжаться этим участком, если иное не предусмотрено
законом или договором.

Статья 265. Основания приобретения права пожизненного
наследуемого владения земельным участком

Право пожизненного наследуемого владения земельным участком,
находящимся в государственной или муниципальной собственности,
приобретается гражданами по основаниям и в порядке, которые
предусмотрены земельным законодательством.

Статья 266. Владение и пользование земельным участком на праве
пожизненного наследуемого владения

1. Гражданин, обладающий правом пожизненного наследуемого
владения (владелец земельного участка), имеет права владения и
пользования земельным участком, передаваемые по наследству.
Peer comment(s):

agree Nadezhda Kirichenko : holder is also possible alonside with "possessor"
57 мин
Thank you, Nadya!
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2 час

title/record owner

I like the xplanation in my Law dictionary, which says that "record ownership" refers to finance and real estate, and to whom is "in charge" of ownership at a given time.
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