| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | For French speakers: two 'plus-que-parfait' quandaries Thread poster: Neil Coffey
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Kay Denney 
France
Local time: 04:17
French to English
(Sorry, I'm not a native French speaker but insight from foreigners in love with the language can sometimes be useful, and since I have been in love with French and studying it for over 40 years and living in France for over 30 I do feel like I'm in a position to contribute.)
I agree with M-E Bell
She used "a eu terminé" which is not the "plus que parfait" but the "passé surcomposé" which replaces the literary "passé antérieur" in everyday speech (to be used in cl... See more (Sorry, I'm not a native French speaker but insight from foreigners in love with the language can sometimes be useful, and since I have been in love with French and studying it for over 40 years and living in France for over 30 I do feel like I'm in a position to contribute.)
I agree with M-E Bell
She used "a eu terminé" which is not the "plus que parfait" but the "passé surcomposé" which replaces the literary "passé antérieur" in everyday speech (to be used in clauses beginning with "quand" or "dès que" for example).
I learnt this in at an advanced FLE class. The next day a student told the teacher that she had mentioned it to a French person who denied the existance of this tense. The teacher replied that the vast majority of French did not know about these finer points of grammar and probably thought that it was incorrect, because it's not something you ever see in writing (since the passés simple and antérieur replace the passés composé and surcomposé). But you would hear people spontaneously using it. I remember being elated to learn that our grammar lesson was more advanced than what most French people ever learned!
As a bit of a grammar geek, I have since tested French people on this. If I hear someone using the passé surcomposé I'll ask them about it and very often they do not realise what they just said, or say that they weren't thinking about whether it was grammatically correct and had no idea how they ought to have said it. In 30 years of living in France I have not once met a French person (discounting translators and other linguists I know) who knows it's the passé surcomposé.
Petitavoine hit the nail on the head: while I loathe generalisation, I have noticed a tendency whereby either you are "bien formatée par l'école" or you're a bad student and your opinion simply won't count.
Either something has been centrally approved by the Académie or it's wrong. It reflects the Napoleonic civil law principle: either it's against the law or it's not. No mucking about with case law that can evolve along with society and compensate for vague wording. If a law lacks clarity, it's chucked out and parliament has to start again.
Unlike with English, you don't get people from all over the world twisting the language this way and that. If something sounds weird, it's probably from Quebec and is duly disregarded (unfortunately so, when it comes to nifty neologisms like courriel and pourriel).
Regional expressions are immediately apologised for when you ask about them. People also point out that you ought not use these expressions because people will think you come from their region. To continue with the legal analogy, you don't get common law judges saying "well according to the letter of the law you are guilty but according to the spirit of the law you are not" as can be the case in England and other common-law countries (often English-speaking). Linguistically, a local expression is a peculiarity with no chance of ever spreading. I can't buy a chocolatine in Paris because they're called pains au chocolat, and no matter that I just love the word chocolatine and find that they taste better when they have a pretty name rather than being referred to as mere bread with chocolate which just doesn't convey how heavenly, light, and subtly sweet the pastry is.
Which all goes to show that asking a French linguist to tell you what sounds right is rather a tall order
[Edited at 2013-11-25 11:45 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 03:17
Member (2007)
English
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| When the Académie disagrees with everyday life? | Nov 25, 2013 |
Texte Style wrote: asking a French linguist to tell you what sounds right is rather a tall order
When teaching in France I often found that I'd have a whole class of business English students happily using a particular French construction, yet apologising for its use as "incorrect". The example that springs to mind is the overuse of the 'futur proche' in place of the normal 'futur', but of course there were also all those handy little Anglicisms that they weren't really allowed to use. I found it odd that terms and constructions in daily use by large numbers of educated native speakers should be considered to be so incorrect that an apology is called for.
As you say: Either something has been centrally approved by the Académie or it's wrong.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 04:17
French to English
| Cheerful disregard for the rules | Nov 25, 2013 |
Sheila Wilson wrote: Texte Style wrote: asking a French linguist to tell you what sounds right is rather a tall order When teaching in France I often found that I'd have a whole class of business English students happily using a particular French construction, yet apologising for its use as "incorrect". The example that springs to mind is the overuse of the 'futur proche' in place of the normal 'futur', but of course there were also all those handy little Anglicisms that they weren't really allowed to use. I found it odd that terms and constructions in daily use by large numbers of educated native speakers should be considered to be so incorrect that an apology is called for. As you say: Either something has been centrally approved by the Académie or it's wrong.
Then again, the French do have a reputation for cheerfully disregarding the rules! Which I find most refreshing even if it drives many English speakers to distraction
I remember an article in a British newspaper about some new EU requirement where the journalist said something to the effect that "here we are all up in arms and effing and blinding about it all, whereas the French simply agree to keep the Germans happy, while in fact everybody knows full well they won't take the slightest notice" and thinking, hum is this why French is the language of diplomacy?
The day I started disregarding a rule, I felt so well integrated into French society!
A friend from the Middle East was refused French nationality on the grounds that he had committed a minor driving offense while slightly over the alcohol limit. He argued that since he had been drinking Bordeaux, it was actually proof that he was well integrated into French society. The argument didn't wash with the procureur of course, but he was naturalised a few years later.
| | | | | The first one Neil | Dec 4, 2013 |
The first one is very French; from Paris at last
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Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:17
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER | @francoisebou | Dec 5, 2013 |
francoisebou wrote:
The first one is very French; from Paris at last
Just to check was that in response to my question about sentences [2] -- in other words, 2(a) "Quand Luc avait terminé son repas, il est parti." is very French?
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