| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Agency recalculating payment after the project was delivered Thread poster: Ledja
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Ledja 
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:34
English to Albanian
+ ...
Here is the story so far:
I was approached by an agency that I have worked for once before. The project consisted of 8 scanned documents of 3 pages each. It was obvious on a first sight that the format was the same for all of them (official permits issued by a state department), and that certain information changed in each document.
The project manager insisted from the start for me to let him know whether there were repetitions and my answer was clear:
“I h... See more Here is the story so far:
I was approached by an agency that I have worked for once before. The project consisted of 8 scanned documents of 3 pages each. It was obvious on a first sight that the format was the same for all of them (official permits issued by a state department), and that certain information changed in each document.
The project manager insisted from the start for me to let him know whether there were repetitions and my answer was clear:
“I have had a quick look through the files and they all seem to follow the same format, therefore, once I have recreated one file in Word, it should be easy to do the rest, hence I can finish this work by tomorrow. Due to the repetition factor, I am willing to take this project on for EUR 0.04 per word , but am unable to give a total wordcount until the end of the project, as the files are scanned, and the wordcount can only be performed on target language in Word documents (when the translation is finished).
Let me know if this is acceptable and whether I should go ahead with the translation.”
In the next few emails, after a rounded down wordcount and an agreed total fee, I had the go-ahead to start translating.
I translated the first document, which involved recreating the original format on Word, tables, stamps, layout and such, and on inspection of the rest of the files found out exactly what changes appeared: dates, references, protocol numbers and EWC numbers and names of substances. Needless to say, I had to thoroughly read each file and make sure that I had spotted each and every change. I found quite a few things to correct on a second and third review – a reference here, a date there – but all was done in a few hours' time and sent through to the agency.
A couple of days later, the project manager sent an email stating that due to the amount of repetitions appearing on my translated files, they could not charge the client with the agreed amount, but gave me instead one of MY translated files, with the highlighted words that were supposed to differ in each file (and they’d actually missed a couple – heaven forbid had I done such thing) and proposed to pay me for the translation of one file with the rate of EUR 0.04/word, and then consider the rest as “reading words” at EUR 0.01/word.
I am absolutely gutted for two reasons in particular:
- They had me read through all 24 pages – and now have the cheek to highlight the changes in my Word documents.
- They claim that the preposterous rate of 4 cent/word is what I have agreed to even for the previous job – to which I replied with an attachment of the previous PO, clearly displaying a higher rate.
I concluded my very long email (with a history of email exchanges and agreements, a Trados table extract showing analysis of repetitions and no matches in clear figures) with the words: “If the client knew the exact contents and text changes in the files, they should have paid someone to review and highlight prior to sending the job for translation. If I have to review, highlight, convert/recreate and translate, then I will reflect all those tasks in the fee charged.”
Looking at this from a third party perspective, does it seem to you, dear prozians, that I was clear enough on the repetition issue, my proposed charges were fair – considering all the work the project involved – and that the client is now out of order with asking a recalculation that brings the fee down to a third of what was originally agreed on?
Working again for this agency is out of the question, but with the given situations, the proposed fee insults me to the point where I don't want it. Either I take what I have earned, or say “no thanks” all together to the “leftovers”.
[Edited at 2012-01-11 17:49 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-01-11 18:15 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mailand
Local time: 22:34
Member (2009)
Italian to German
+ ...
| Clear, fair, on time - what more do they want! | Jan 11, 2012 |
Dear Ledja,
I think you were very clear in your first mail, couldn´t have been more so. The agency obviously didn´t know how to do their part of the job. I completely understand that you feel offended. I couldn´t even say, as sometimes happen with other posts, that this could be taken as a normal "learning experience" - there was nothing to be learnt, other than maybe asking for payment in advance .... .
Unfortunately I don´t have any advice to give on this account, just w... See more Dear Ledja,
I think you were very clear in your first mail, couldn´t have been more so. The agency obviously didn´t know how to do their part of the job. I completely understand that you feel offended. I couldn´t even say, as sometimes happen with other posts, that this could be taken as a normal "learning experience" - there was nothing to be learnt, other than maybe asking for payment in advance .... .
Unfortunately I don´t have any advice to give on this account, just wanted to let you know I sympathize .... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | A good lesson | Jan 11, 2012 |
Sorry if I have to say this.
Ledja Derveni wrote:
- They claim that the preposterous rate of 4 cent/word is what I have agreed to even for the previous job – to which I replied with an attachment of the previous PO, clearly displaying a higher rate.
Next time charge 3x this, for your language pair. Send them a written quote and then stay firm.
I was approached by an agency that I have worked for once before. The project consisted of 8 scanned documents of 3 pages each. It was obvious on a first sight that the format was the same for all of them (official permits issued by a state department), and that certain information changed in each document.
If it is a scanned document, then the whole wordcount should apply. Even if there are repetitions. Or a lump sum for the whole text, based on the estimated number of words in the target text.
I translated the first document, which involved recreating the original format on Word, tables, stamps, layout and such, and on inspection of the rest of the files found out exactly what changes appeared: dates, references, protocol numbers and EWC numbers and names of substances.
You only have to provide the translation, typed in Word, not to recreate the whole document. (you are even not allowed to reproduce signatures). If there is a stamp you type [stamp]. And if you are asked to do formatting, you charge DTP fees (about € 45 - 60/hr). Have a written quote signed before you begin.
Needless to say, I had to thoroughly read each file and make sure that I had spotted each and every change. I found quite a few things to correct on a second and third review – a reference here, a date there – but all was done in a few hours' time and sent through to the agency.
This is normal but on a Word file.
the translation of one file with the rate of EUR 0.04/word, and then consider the rest as “reading words” at EUR 0.01/word.
If they wanted this, they should provide you with a Word text or another format which could easily been processed with a CAT. And you should have made a quote beforehand (or in the worsest case, accept their quote).
Working again for this agency is out of the question,
Well, I hope so.
[Edited at 2012-01-11 18:22 GMT]
| | | | Jaroslaw Michalak
Poland
Local time: 22:34
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER | Daylight robbery | Jan 11, 2012 |
Ledja Derveni wrote:
In the next few emails, after a rounded down wordcount and an agreed total fee, I had the go-ahead to start translating.
You had agreed on the total fee. Period. No further calculations, Trados analyses etc. are necessary or relevant - they have agreed on the amount and that is it.
A couple of days later, the project manager sent an email stating that due to the amount of repetitions appearing on my translated files, they could not charge the client with the agreed amount
I am not sure you see what they did here... They could charge the client then and cannot charge it now? Why exactly? The end client had a revelation about the source files? Not likely - if they did notice the repetitions, they have pointed that out while ordering the job at the agency. So why the change? Did the agency's collective conscience bother them so much that they decided to lower the price unilaterally? I do not really think so... Or maybe they agreed the full amount with the client and now they realized they cannot get away with it? A little bit more likely, but still not much...
You can be pretty sure that they will charge the end client whatever they have agreed with them in the beginning. Whatever reduction they hoped to get from you would go straight into their pockets...
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 22:34
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| I think the agency misunderstood the discount | Jan 11, 2012 |
Ledja Derveni wrote:
My answer was clear: "Due to the repetition factor, I am willing to take this project on for EUR 0.04 per word..."
A couple of days later, the project manager sent an email stating that due to the amount of repetitions appearing on my translated files, they could not charge the client with the agreed amount...
It sounds as if the client didn't understand the nature of the discounted rate. He probably gave his client a per-word rate also, and now that there are repetitions, his client expects a discount on the given per-word rate, not realising that the given per-word rate is already a discounted rate.
Working again for this agency is out of the question...
Why? The agency is between a rock and a hard place, and he is asking you to reconsider your rate. Tell him "no". He will then tell his client that he could not negotiate a further discount.
If you want to explain it to him, keep your explanation short. Don't spend more time on writing the explanation than you spent translating the job.
If the client wants to pay the way he proposes to pay, then he has to give you the text in MS Word format himself, already formatted and proofread against the original. If he wants you to type the text, and format it, and proofread it (before translation), then he has to compensate you for that in some way that reflects the amount of time that you spent doing that. If he wants to give you his own typed/formatted versions but he wants you to proofread the translation against the original PDFs, he has to pay for that too.
Jabberwock wrote:
I am not sure you see what they did here... They could charge the client then and cannot charge it now? ... You can be pretty sure that they will charge the end client whatever they have agreed with them in the beginning.
I don't see it that way (although I admit that it could happen that way). Another way this could have happened was:
Client to agency: Please translate these files for me. How much would you charge?
Agency to client: Let me ask my translator. By the way, I see many repetitions here, and I may be able to negotiate a discount on the translation rate.
(Agency asks translator for a quote. Translator quotes EUR 0.04 per word.)
Agency to client: Great news! I found a translator who is willing to do it for [EUR 0.04 + markup] per word.
(After translation, agency informs client of final word count, and of the final amount.)
Client to agency: Wait a minute... you said that there would be a sizable discount on the translation rate because of the repetitions. Why am I being charged the full rate for the full number of words?
[Edited at 2012-01-11 19:11 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 22:34
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| On formatting of scanned files | Jan 11, 2012 |
christela wrote:
You only have to provide the translation, typed in Word, not to recreate the whole document. (you are even not allowed to reproduce signatures). If there is a stamp you type [stamp].
I have found that most agencies that ask me to translate diplomas etc are not satisfied with a "standard" legal translation in which formatting is described but not mimicked. The agencies I worked for all wanted some kind of formatting, even if it is only an approximation.
In fact, in the guidelines for sworn translation of one of my local translators' association, all of the example files have been formatted to match the source. Sure, if there is a stamp, you write "stamp" and if there is a signature you write "signature", but that is not formatting.
| | | | | End of the story! | Jan 11, 2012 |
Ledja Derveni wrote:
In the next few emails, after a rounded down wordcount and an agreed total fee, I had the go-ahead to start translating.
Perfect! There is an agreed total fee and a PO. End of the discussion. That is what you should invoice and that is what they should pay.
(Edited for an obvious typo.)
[Edited at 2012-01-11 19:24 GMT]
| | | | Ledja
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:34
English to Albanian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks Mailand, Christela and Jabberwock for the support and the wise comments - they lifted my spirits; I am definitely putting my foot down with the agency.
They sent the PO from the start, but the box with the word total and rate per word were left blank - which is why I mentioned I requested confirmation of the rounded up wordcount and fee through email before starting.
You only have to provide the translation, typed in Word, not to recreate the whole document. (you are even not allowed to reproduce signatures). If there is a stamp you type [stamp].
I have handled stamps and signatures before - I knew exactly what to do with them. But there were words to translate in stamps as well, and one particular recurring one served as a header for the document and had hand-written information in it (date, protocol no., department no. etc).
If they wanted this, they should provide you with a Word text or another format which could easily been processed with a CAT.
This is the point I have been putting forth to the agency. I did a lot more than just translation here and they are failing (or pretending to fail) to grasp the idea that assessing the text layout and word count now that they have in Word - from me - is obviously a piece of cake.
I actually sent them the "no match" count and the "repetitions" count (from Trados analysis), charged respectively at full rate and 10%, and this only fell an odd 20 euros short of the original price. This is the point where they decided on their own calculations and rates and presented me with the ridiculous fee. No thanks!
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Ledja
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:34
English to Albanian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Why I would not work for this agency again | Jan 11, 2012 |
[quote]Samuel Murray wrote:
Working again for this agency is out of the question... Why? The agency is between a rock and a hard place, and he is asking you to reconsider your rate. Tell him "no". He will then tell his client that he could not negotiate a further discount.
Hi Samuel,
I have just read your posts and I am open to those scenarios. However, the project manager is making utterly ridiculous claims on some seriously important issues here:
1. When they asked me to advise on repetitions, I supposedly said there weren't any, but the end client was saying there were. Did my above pasted email message fail to state repetitions at all? I don't think so.
2. I have agreed to 4 cent/word on my previous project with this agency!!! Not true at all - I sent them a copy of the previous PO, they should also have my previous invoice.
And whenever I provide evidence of previous emails, agreements and files such as PO and invoice, they do not reply to that email, but send me a new message that doesn't pick up my points but states theirs instead.
This is why I no longer would consider working for them.
As for the formatting required with certain scanned documents, I agree with you, and I haven't minded doing an acceptable amount of work in this regard, but have certainly put up my rate to reflect the time spent.
[Edited at 2012-01-11 19:29 GMT]
| | | | Jaroslaw Michalak
Poland
Local time: 22:34
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER | Not really... | Jan 11, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Client to agency: Please translate these files for me. How much would you charge?
Agency to client: Let me ask my translator. By the way, I see many repetitions here, and I may be able to negotiate a discount on the translation rate.
(Agency asks translator for a quote. Translator quotes EUR 0.04 per word.)
Agency to client: Great news! I found a translator who is willing to do it for [EUR 0.04 + markup] per word.
(After translation, agency informs client of final word count, and of the final amount.)
It is very unlikely that they did not present the end client at least an estimate of the total amount. And if they did, it would be obvious it was the discounted price.
Client to agency: Wait a minute... you said that there would be a sizable discount on the translation rate because of the repetitions. Why am I being charged the full rate for the full number of words?
I do not think any agency (and very few translators) gives a "discounted rate" - for psychological reasons. If you give the definite rate, it sticks in the mind of the client - "Why do you charge me 0.08 if it was 0.04 last time?" Any salesman worth his salt says "Normally it costs 0.08, but I'm willing to give you a 50% discount".
However, even if we assume in good faith that they blundered so terribly, they are still not worth working with again. But the "trick" with sending Ledja her own work in an attempt to negotiate completely new terms proves that they are just trying to be smart...
| | | | | The psychological aspect | Jan 11, 2012 |
I've read about similar behaviour many times before, and one thing I've noticed is that some dishonest agencies seem to adopt a deliberate strategy of trying to cause as much irritation as possible. In your case, aside from the financial hit they want you to take, you point out that they are (1) claiming you did a previous job for 4 cents per word (a lie which you have already disproven to them), (2) lying by saying that you claimed there were no repetitions, and (3) ignoring you when you point ... See more I've read about similar behaviour many times before, and one thing I've noticed is that some dishonest agencies seem to adopt a deliberate strategy of trying to cause as much irritation as possible. In your case, aside from the financial hit they want you to take, you point out that they are (1) claiming you did a previous job for 4 cents per word (a lie which you have already disproven to them), (2) lying by saying that you claimed there were no repetitions, and (3) ignoring you when you point out (1) and (2) to them. I don't believe for a moment that any of these things is accidental; you've provided evidence that they are wrong and instead of apologising like a bona-fide agency would, they are simply ignoring you. If they want to renege on the agreed rate, neither claim (1), which would be irrelevant even if true, nor claim (2), which is patently untrue, helps their case (not that they have a case anyway!), so it may be worth asking yourself what they are playing at here.
My theory is that the agency is hoping for one of two outcomes. Either you will become so wound up that you lose your temper and say or do something that will weaken your (strong) position, such as saying something extreme which could later be used to portray you as unreasonable or aggressive if the matter is referred to a court or other third party, or you will become so fed up with the whole saga that you back down to avoid further hassle. Both of these outcomes will help them to achieve their goal of squeezing money out of you. So, with those two scenarios in mind, I would suggest that you do two things:
(1) Choose your words carefully whenever contacting them - the more concise and matter-of-fact you can be, the better - and make sure you avoid giving the impression of being wound up (easier said than done, I know!)
(2) Insist on being paid the amount initially agreed on. If the agency refuses to pay up and tries to take your money hostage until you back down, give it written notice that you intend to use any and all legal means at your disposal to recover the debt, and don't be afraid to go ahead if it's practical for you to do so. That, combined with a Blue Board comment, might just persuade them if nothing else does. ▲ Collapse
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 16:34
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I got an impression | Jan 12, 2012 |
that the translation agency-translator relationship is becoming less and less healthy. Sometimes the parties get hostile to each other.This is abnormal. Plumbers never get hostile to their clients; The clients of lawyers and accountants dare not get hostile to them. But this is happening in our industry, all as a result of the fact that the going rates are droping dramatically everywhere.
I had a similar experience as the original poster of this thread. I received 6 scanned PDFs and... See more that the translation agency-translator relationship is becoming less and less healthy. Sometimes the parties get hostile to each other.This is abnormal. Plumbers never get hostile to their clients; The clients of lawyers and accountants dare not get hostile to them. But this is happening in our industry, all as a result of the fact that the going rates are droping dramatically everywhere.
I had a similar experience as the original poster of this thread. I received 6 scanned PDFs and I was permitted to use my regular rate to translate one of them, and I was told there are only 1 or 2 sentences in each of the rest files different to the first file. And I was offered "repetition rate for a proofreading job" of $0.002 per word for these 5 files (namely, $6 to read though 3000 words and find the difference). I agreed without much thinking.
It turned out that there are more than 10 minor differences on each of those files. I spent about 5 hours on these files to make $30. Then I told myself this must be stopped and I sent the files to the agency telling them that I might have missed something because it was unrealistic to thoroughly review the files at the given rate.
After the job was done, the agency sent the files directly to the end client, who eventully found several more minor differences on each file. The agency sent the files back to me asking me to revise according to the explanation of the end client. But the end client wrote a long explantion about what they had found instead of telling me where these differences were. I requested $100 additional payment. The client said:
"I will pay you nothing because you are requesting payment for your own fault".
I e-mailed them back telling them I won't be able to do it no matter what they say. I was getting rude because they were becoming irrational.
They kept emailing me urging me to work on these for free. After several round of e-mail exchange, I stoped replying to their e-mails because it was a total waste of time to talk to them. And 5 days had passed before they sent me another email asking "have you finished the files"? Then I told them to stop sending me e-mail. "I don't want to communicate with you anymore. It is a big waste of my time replying your e-mails".
I intended to give up the client even if they would refuse to pay me the translation of the first file. After a month the boss of the agency urged me to send invoices. I did. They paid me the full fee for the translation of the first file but deducted $15 from the review fee of the 5 similar files.
So, for the review of those 5 files, I got $15. (I spent 5 hours in reviewing and 2 hours in e-mail communication with them.)
I was not so sad about this. On the contrary I had a light mood because the agency might have been taught a lession. I don't think their end client would like their working style either, which would eventually lead to their own loss.
If an agency treats you as a beast, you shouldn't treat them as human beings.
[Edited at 2012-01-12 04:29 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-01-12 06:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| charge an adequate rate and prevent these problems | Jan 12, 2012 |
Ledja Derveni wrote:
Due to the repetition factor, I am willing to take this project on for EUR 0.04 per word , but am unable to give a total word count until the end of the project, as the files are scanned, and the word count can only be performed on target language in Word documents (when the translation is finished).
Let me know if this is acceptable and whether I should go ahead with the translation.”
In the next few emails, after a rounded down word count and an agreed total fee, I had the go-ahead to start translating. ...
Dear Ledja,
I hope you'll never work for EUR 0.04 again. And ask for a PO (with all items completed such as word count and rate or, if that is difficult, quote an hourly rate but always quote a final price - you will have to figure it somehow, then there is no problem) or draw up a contract and have them countersign it. Even with a discount, that is an unacceptable rate for professional translators as well as professional agencies.
Please have a look at the average rates posted on proz.com (and I still consider those low):
http://search.proz.com/employers/rates
By the way, they shouldn't be called employers. That's just wrong.
Anyway, you had to experience that they are, indeed, unprofessional:
Ledja Derveni wrote:
... A couple of days later, the project manager sent an email stating that due to the amount of repetitions appearing on my translated files, they could not charge the client with the agreed amount, but gave me instead one of MY translated files, with the highlighted words that were supposed to differ in each file (and they’d actually missed a couple – heaven forbid had I done such thing) and proposed to pay me for the translation of one file with the rate of EUR 0.04/word, and then consider the rest as “reading words” at EUR 0.01/word.
I am absolutely gutted for two reasons in particular: ...
Even when discounted, their should be no corrections, as many colleagues have pointed out. Agreed is agreed, between you and YOUR client. You are the service provider, they are the client. They have no case.
You will not run into those problems if you stick with professional clients. That's the only way to go. Create a good profile page and/or your own website and charge what you deserve.
As far as the above agency is concerned, did you check them on blueboard? Unfortunately, it might not tell you much about how much an agency pays and how professional they are but a company like this either has a bad blueboard record or, if they are not listed, you should have asked for the money up front.
Hope this helps for new clients.
As for now, you could try asking proz.com to intervene on your behalf. That company is violating your initial agreement. That is a form of scam.
Good luck,
Bernhard
edited to fix a typo.
[Edited at 2012-01-12 11:55 GMT]
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 21:34
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Maybe the quote could have been clearer | Jan 12, 2012 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I hope you'll never work for EUR 0.04 again.
Just to put the record straight, you didn't really work for 0.04€ per word, did you Ledja? You worked for your normal rate on the first document, and discounted the others heavily due to the amount of repetitious work they involved. My two cents' worth of advice would be to make that very clear in future quotes. Charge your full rate for everything, then apply any discount(s): that way, they can never say your "normal" rate is less then you need to earn a decent living.
Other than that, I agree that they are being totally unreasonable and trying to either recover from their own error or simply hoping to profit from your naïvety to rob you. Hold fast and insist on being paid in full - they must know they cannot win. If it's worth taking legal action they won't have a hope of winning and will end up paying more than they would have paid you (interest, legal costs...).
Good luck.
Sheila
| | | | | Such work should always be time based | Jan 12, 2012 |
Working with such documents only make sense on an hourly base. Estimate the total time you need before the job starts, multiply with your hourly rate, that gives you a total project price. That's what you should quote to the client, and get an agreement in writing.
Otherwise, there is room for arguing on the wordcount, repetitions that could only be discovered while thoroughly reading the source docs, and such silly things, after the project is done.
For example, nobody would... See more Working with such documents only make sense on an hourly base. Estimate the total time you need before the job starts, multiply with your hourly rate, that gives you a total project price. That's what you should quote to the client, and get an agreement in writing.
Otherwise, there is room for arguing on the wordcount, repetitions that could only be discovered while thoroughly reading the source docs, and such silly things, after the project is done.
For example, nobody would take on abstracting work or writing summaries on a target word count base, right?
[Edited at 2012-01-12 18:05 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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